Wilson vs. Nighthawk: story?

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Sevens

New member
Does anyone have a direct link to a background story or perhaps just industry rumor or drama or discussion as to the back story between these two outfits? Or even have info they'll post?

It seems to be common knowledge that Nighthawk was started by some former Wilson guys... but was this an amicable split?

We've got two upper-echelon 1911 builders selling guns at $2500-$3500 each, and both exist in Berryville, Arkansas... a town that Google/Wiki claims has a population of only 5,400 people.

I know that the roots of high-end 1911 pistol makers are often folks that knew each other before the average gun guy had heard of them and their products... Les Baer, Bill Wilson and Ed Brown were all competitors around the same time and (I would imagine?) knew each other quite well long before we really knew who any of them were, but I'd like to hear how Nighthawk came to be and wonder if it's a jab in the side of Wilson Combat that they set up their digs in the same (tiny) little town. :confused:
 
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WVsig

New member
IIRC most of the Nighthawk guys are former Wilson employees who went out on their own but like KYjim cannot remember the details.
 
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KyJim

New member
That is correct. I'm not sure that "amicable" describes the split, though. I don't have a link but seem to recall that was my impression when it happened.
 
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Spats McGee

Administrator
All I have is second-hand knowledge, but I'll tell you what I've heard: Yes, some former Wilson employees left and started Nighthawk. (There might have even been an ex-wife and a divorce somewhere in the mix. I don't know enough about that, though, to fill in the juicy details.) That being the tale, I would not imagine that it was amicable, and it's certainly no surprise that the companies are in such close proximity to one another.

Welcome to Arkansas!
 
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Jim Watson

New member
I don't recall all the soap opera details, but after NH was organized by ex-WC employees, at least one guy went back to WC and another broke off and set up his own third generation shop.

Kind of like Shiloh Sharps and C. Sharps. Competitors from the same roots in the same town.

The only real question is, do you like the guns?
 
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Sevens

New member
The only real question is, do you like the guns?
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Here on the world's FINEST firearms discussion forum, that is not the only "real" question.

I think I could like either, but if spending money in that manner for a 1911... I'm going to go with what I know. Les Baer.
 
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1hogfan83

New member
5400 is a huge town in Arkansas! Don't talk bad about my beloved state, if y'all want "your aunts your mothers sisters brother" stories, go to Missouri. Would that WC story be like the Ferrari/Lamborghini story? Upset with the performance, lambo (nighthawk) went to Enzo (WC) to complain. Knowing that they make the best in their respective field, Enzo would have none of it, blowing lambo off. Getting upset, to say the least, lambo vowed to create a monster, and that he did.
 
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RickB

New member
Just about everyone used to be somewhere else.
Les Baer ran the Springfield Armory Custom Shop before making guns under his own name. Rock River (initially, a maker of high-end 1911s) spun off Les Baer, somewhat in the manner that Nighthawk spun off Wilson.
 
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BigJimP

New member
My info is all 2nd hand as well....but I did hear that some of the principles and key employees behind Nighthawk were Wilson's guys ...and I think there is an ex-wife in the mix....

No - the split was not amicable.../ but I did not hear it was completely ugly either !
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Prices on Nighthawk vs Wilson ...gun to gun / feature to feature...are a little fuzzy ...but in my view the Nighthawk is a little cheaper / but not nearly as well built internally or as well "Fit" as the Wilson's in my view.

I have buddies that are fans of Nighthawk / and in full disclosure, I'm a Wilson Combat fan...( and I own 1911's from Kimber, Les Baer, Ed Brown and Wilson ) and my Wilson's well after 25,000 rds are way better guns than the others I own. But my buddy likes his Nighthawks and he'll defend them. Some of my buddies will defend Les Baer...and some will defend Ed Brown../ but none of them say the Wilsons are bad guns - they like pricing on the other mfg's better than Wilson, is the consistent bottom line in most of their arguments.

Based on my experience with buying about eight 1911's in the last 15 yrs ....If pricing is irrelevant...I think Wilson Combat comes to the top - followed closely by Ed Brown ...with a very distant 3rd to Les Baer...and #4 - #10 are a mix of Nighthawk, Kimber, Springfield, Colt, Sig, etc....
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and as to the real details behind the split from Wilson ...to Nighthawk...I don't know anybody that is giving any confirmed details. The Wilson Combat guys I know, just smile, and won't talk about it even in person over a beer. Their stock answer is ....there are a lot of good 1911's out there ...but they stand behind their guns ! ( and they do in my experience / broke an extractor on one at about 40,000 rds they insisted I ship it to them, they paid all the freight, made the repairs, cleaned it up while it was there - returned it to me in less than 10 days --- all free under warranty to me !). That's why I'm loyal to Wilson -- and every time I touch one of my Wilson's ...and or shoot it / I love them.

I've given the Les Baer Monolith away to a son / and the Ed Brown Kobra carry to another son...and I don't want either one back. I will probably sell the Kimbers - or give them to some of the grandkids...but they'll have to dig into the coffin, to get the Wilson's someday... !
 
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Sevens

New member
I've gotten to know a pair of Les Baer guns and a pair of Ed Brown guns very well, even though I only owned three of the four. I do not consider myself a "high-end 1911 guy" which is to say that part of the fun of handguns (to me, and I'm goofy...) is also being happy and satisfied with the amount of money I have in to the gun for what I get back from it.

What I mean to say is that if I truly want to enjoy the full experience, I really enjoy knowing that I got a lot of bang for my buck. I have no desire to argue with anyone about exactly WHERE that value/price needs to be... I am merely explaining why I don't currently own -ANY- Wilson, Baer, Brown, Nighthawk or any of the high-dollar 1911s.

Will I own another one day? Possibly. Perhaps even likely. But my point is that I know what to expect from a Brown and a Baer, but I am not familiar (hands-on) with either Wilson or Nighthawk.

And Ed Brown impresses me, as it should.
But a Les Baer impresses me more than a Brown, and not by a little bit. That (generally speaking) a Les Baer tends to come in under the price of an Ed Brown is, to me, icing on the cake.
 
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KyJim

New member
My impression has always been that a Brown is prettier but a Baer is a better shooter. YMMV.
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Hard to say (except for Baers guaranteed to shoot 1.5 inch groups at 50 yards). I can't tell any real difference in mine but I've never tested mine from a machine rest.
 
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Leo3

New member
My brother in law has the Nighthawk T3 Custom. I never shot it but it sure does look nice. I never held or shot a Wilson so I can't compare. As for me, I'd rather have three $1000 1911's than one $3000 1911. If money was no object, I'd buy them all. :D
 
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Blue Duck

New member
I shot IPSC with Wilson way back in the early 80's, but a good Wilson Comp gun was $1,200 even back then, and I never thought I could afford it at the time.

Wilson was probably at his competitive best back then, and was winning a lot of matches, so his guns were selling pretty good, and it's just grown from there. At that time we shot the matches at the Muzzleloading range in Berryville, Ar most of the time but we also alternated between there and the old Fayetteville police range. No doubt we got to shoot at the police range because Richard Watson (Fayetteville Police Chef at the time) also shot IPSC with us. Most cops were not very good shots in that era at the time, but Richard was a pretty good shot, however not in the same class as Wilson.

We also had Ross Carter shooting with us and he was pretty good. I can remember which year it was for sure, but around 81 or so, Bill Wilson, Ross Carter, and Richard Watson went to the IPSC World Matches in Africa that year, and it was the same year Ross Sefred won the championship and he was the last one I know of to do it with a 5 inch non compensated gun.

That year Ross Carter came out 4th overall, Bill Wilson 11th over all and Richard Watson 50th. In the local matches Wilson usually always beat Carter but I don't know, Wilson choked or had some issue that knocked him back to 11th, still pretty good I thought. Our little club in NW Arkansas had a pretty tough bunch of shooters back then.

In the 90's Bill Wilson had a nice shooting range way back in the boonies in the bottom of this wooded valley, he owned, and I shot some IDPA there in the 90's, but he lost that range and land in the divorce later on. His wife got part of the business, but I don't think that had anything to do with the Nighthawk spin off but I could be wrong, as I certainly don't have the inside dope on that deal.

I finally ordered a 5 inch Wilson Combat pistol back in the 90's and it's still my best made pistol, bar none. I think it cost me around $1,750 back then.

Wilson is and was a fine shot, but his best talents probably lay in the business world. He certainly put Berryville on the map.
 
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