Will the gun blow up?

J

James K

Member In Memoriam
I know this subject has been done before, but I have not seen either a definitive answer based on fact or any reason behind a writer's opinion.

Supposedly, when using black powder, failure to seat the bullet firmly on the powder (whether in a muzzle loader or in a metallic cartridge) will result in the gun blowing up. Always, no exceptions. Even 1/10" gap between powder and bullet will destroy the gun.

Now my problem is twofold. It was pretty common in the old days to load less than a full charge of black powder or to not seat the ball/bullet down on the charge. We have examples with the .45-55 carbine load and the 28 grain load in the .45 Colt. No wads or filler was used, yet, I have not seen any reports of those guns blowing up. I have myself loaded percussion revolvers and ML rifles with less than the recommended charge and the guns didn't blow up. I have loaded BP cartridges with light loads of BP and the guns didn't blow up.

So, either the "uncompressed powder causes the gun to blow up" is untrue, I have been lucky, or there is some factor I am missing. So, 1) can anyone state that they have personally had a BP gun blow up and have certain knowledge that it was due to an uncompressed (but otherwise safe) load of BP?

2) Can anyone offer any reason why that would happen, not just once, but apparently all the time, for perhaps tens of thousands of times?

3) If it has happened, and happens all the time, how come warnings seem to be limited to internet chatter, not to loading books or BP canisters?

Jim
 
J

Jim Watson

New member
I have not heard reliably of a gun blown up because of the invidious airspace, but a friend had a barrel bulged by a short started ball.
The guy he loaned it to shot it until heavily fouled, got a patched ball stuck partway down, and shot it out. TC made it good but my friend was sorry to lose his low numbered barrel. Said the replacement was never quite as accurate.

The Shiloh board has considerable discussion on ringed chambers from over powder wads with air gap under the bullet, but that is not quite the same thing.

But I thought the .45-55-405 carbine load had a cardboard tube insert to reduce internal volume.
 
M

Magnum Wheel Man

New member
FIL bulged a barrel on a 54 caliber, that they are assuming the barrel was pretty fouled, & he didn't get the ball fully seated on the charge, as the bulge was 4-5 inches from the breach...

I'm wondering if "blow up" is more defined by the actual powder charge versus the strength of the metal around the charge...

on FIL's 54 caliber, the barrel was cut 6" - 7" shorter & re-machined & returned to the original rifle

on a cap & ball revolver, you have generally lower charges of powder, & not very far for the ball to travel, before it hits the barrel cylinder gap, & generally they are not as tight in the cylinder mouth, as they are in barrel
 
P

Pahoo

New member
Do we ignore or support ??

Always, no exceptions. Even 1/10" gap between powder and bullet will destroy the gun.
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Can't really speak to those requirements but as others have stated, barrel ring sor what the old timers called; "Walnuts" do exist. . .... :)

I feel the two conditions you listed, needs to be addressed individually as the only thing they "might" have in common, is blowing up a barrel.

Light Charges;
Have not experienced any problems but have never gone there. Can't recall any accounts as well.

Short Starts
Sam Fadala has run extensive field test on mock-ups and has this information in some of his books. He also refers to others that have run these test. Again, I don't go there, as well. Short stokes on the rod, firmly seat to 35-40lbs of rod pressure.

I teaching our M/L classes, I have compiled a list of 19-Safety rules/guidelines, dealing with M/Ls. How should we respond to such rules that are hard to document? "Someone" has and perhaps, for good reason. Do we ignore them or support them? ...... :confused:

Be Safe !!!
 
G

g.willikers

New member
The potential for damage probably depends on the actual pressure of the load and the quality of the firearm.
KInd of similar to smokeless powder.
The bigger the mistake the bigger the results.
Small errors do no harm, big errors need a call to 911.
 
J

James K

Member In Memoriam
In other words, no. No one seems to have had a ML gun blow up because the bullet/ball was not firmly seated (hammered down) on the powder. Now has anyone had a gun blow because a BP metallic cartridge was not fully loaded or the powder compressed?

(I will save the barrel bulging question until another time, but it doesn't happen as described.)

Jim
 
S

Slamfire

New member
A local gunshop showed me a black powder rifle barrel, might have been a modern Lyman, that the sidewall had a seam rupture. The owner kept it to show to people that blackpowder barrels will burst. I don’t know the circumstances.

I have never seen another burst barrel but don’t doubt that air space could cause a burst. Powder burning is fast, there are all sorts of pressure waves reflecting back and forth . You get an interaction between a pressure wave from the main charge and a pressure wave rebounding off a bore obstruction, why can’t pressures spike? Wave interaction from gunpowder would not be 100% predictable, and 100% repeatable, but given enough tries, why couldn’t you blow the barrel? Without real time pressure data, we don’t know what the pressures are doing in the tube, so all we are doing is guessing.

I am going to say as a general statement, regardless of the propellant, caliber, whatever, what you want every shot is an even and consistent pressure curve. You want each and every pressure curve to be similar and smooth. Irregularities will create unpredictable outcomes. I don’t like unpredictable outcomes when my health is at stake, and I don’t want to be behind something that blows through a weak seam in the metal.


I am interested in test data. If someone wants to test this in a pressure barrel and shoot enough shots for a statistically reasonable sample, this would be great. Until then, we are all giving our best guesses.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=769231

This may be relevant to what you are talking about.
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Only saw this after I posted, and the example is good. I am aware of reading in the news of a kid who died when his blackpowder rifle blew up on him. This is the thread, not a lot of information and the thread was closed.

14 year old killed in muzzle loading accident

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthre...14+year+old+killed+in+muzzle+loading+accident
 
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J

James K

Member In Memoriam
Air pressure or powder gas will not burst a barrel unless it is of very poor quality. What bursts barrels is a combination of a bore obstruction and a bullet fired into that obstruction. The moving bullet is stopped by the obstruction, and its kinetic energy is instantly converted into heat. That heat softens the barrel metal and the gas pressure combined with any expansion of the bullet, bulges the barrel. If the heat is great enough or the barrel fails, then it will split and result is a burst barrel, not just a bulged one.

Powder gas alone does not have enough kinetic energy to burst the barrel; some other factor, usually a second projectile, is involved. In a cartridge gun, that usually happens when a "squib" load leaves a bullet stuck in the barrel (though a stuck "snake" or cleaning rod will do the same thing) and the shooter fires a second round into the obstruction. In muzzle loaders, the cause is not always clear, but will almost always involve a second ball/bullet.

In recent years, though, a second issue has arisen with muzzle loaders - poor quality barrels, mostly imported, made from what amounts to water pipe, and low grade pipe at that. Good barrels are drilled from bar stock, but this material is extruded and has a seam that is a weak point. A number of ML rifles put out by some "big names" in the business, have burst (that material rarely bulges), and there have been numerous warnings and some lawsuits.

Jim
 
S

Slamfire

New member
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IDAHO GAITERS

New member
Run a test. Fill a barrel completely full of BP and see if it goes. Then, use a faster powder, such as a smokeless powder, and see if it goes.
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I'll pass on that one. Ha! Have heard of guys shooting stuck bullets out of muzzleloaders and getting by with it. That would scare me to death to even try it. At some point I would be afraid that depending on the powder charge and where the bullet was stuck and how hard it was stuck (and other variables) that
the muzzleloader could turn into a pipe bomb and that wouldn't be somewhere I would want to be. I'm a little short on the nine lives as it is.

Idaho Gaiters
 
P

Pahoo

New member
I won't go there !!!

In other words, no. No one seems to have had a ML gun blow up because the bullet/ball was not firmly seated (hammered down) on the powder
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In my previous reply, I stated that Sam Fadala had run some tests and I forgot to mention that he documented blown barrels, on short starts. Just because I personally have never experienced one does not mean others have not. I don't want to test this and who would. A buddy of mine went to prison for a short spell and I asked him how it was in there. He said it wasn't all that bad. Personally, I don't want to find out. ... ;)

Air pressure or powder gas will not burst a barrel unless it is of very poor quality.
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In other words, you are stating that there have been barrels burst and aren't you contradicting yourself. I can name a barrel that did burst but it's probably on your Poor-Quality list, so why waste our time. .... :confused:

I don't know where you want to take us but I think I will pass. ..... ;)

Be Safe !!!
 
J

James K

Member In Memoriam
Hi, Slamfire,

I have never filled a barrel completely full of powder, but I have loaded a charge many times the normal and nothing happens AS LONG AS THERE IS NO BULLET. The powder itself will ignite at the rear, but does not give enough resistance for pressure to build; unburned and burning powder will just be blown out the muzzle. Perhaps with a barrel full of powder, results would be different, so I would like to see your data and pictures, if possible.

Hi, Pahoo, I am not sure it is a contradiction. It is one thing to say that a properly made barrel won't burst. It is another to say that a piece of electrical conduit or 150 psi water pipe will burst if used as a barrel.

Jim
 
S

Slamfire

New member
Hi, Slamfire,

I have never filled a barrel completely full of powder, but I have loaded a charge many times the normal and nothing happens AS LONG AS THERE IS NO BULLET. The powder itself will ignite at the rear, but does not give enough resistance for pressure to build; unburned and burning powder will just be blown out the muzzle. Perhaps with a barrel full of powder, results would be different, so I would like to see your data and pictures, if possible.
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Oh no, this is not going to be my cause or life to prove or disprove some random concept you don't believe in. I am of the opinion that the "conventional" wisdom of not leaving an air gap, along with the account that Idaho Gaiters found, of a blackpowder barrel blown,

friend in Pennsylvania sent me this email this morning.

-accident at Sportsmen’s Club on Monday.
-84 year old man tried to shoot out a ball stuck about 8 inches down the muzzle.
-blew off his left thumb and doctors are trying to save the rest of his hand.

That's all the details I have so far.
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is good enough for me to accept this idea.
 
T

thallub

New member
Supposedly, when using black powder, failure to seat the bullet firmly on the powder (whether in a muzzle loader or in a metallic cartridge) will result in the gun blowing up. Always, no exceptions. Even 1/10" gap between powder and bullet will destroy the gun.
Click to expand...

Vivid stories of black powder cartridge guns blowing up when loaded with reduced blackpowder loads are myth. Decades ago i fired many hundreds of original .45/55 cartridges in trapdoor Springfield rifles without a problem.

Many claim muzzleloaders loaded with blackpowder and a short started patched round ball will blow up. Some "experts" say a dry balled muzzleloader will blow up when three or five grains of black powder is placed in the flame channel and under the nipple if the ball is not properly seated. The idea of a few grains of blackpowder blowing up a muzzleloader is absurd.

In the majority of the "muzzleloader blows up" horror stories too little information is available for an accurate assessment of what really occurred.

In a few cases the reason for the gun blowing up is glaringly obvious to the most casual observer. This guy loaded his muzzleloader with a measured 75 grains of powder taken from a shotgun shell.

http://www.outdoorhub.com/news/2014/12/16/muzzleloader-explodes-like-grenade-takes-shooters-fingers/

CT Muzzleloaders published this article about short started balls and bulged/blown barrels:

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/bulge/bulge.html

The same organization deliberately short started balls with no adverse effect:

Before anyone goes nuts about the 'Loose' variation, let me point out that it is perfectly safe to have a small space between the powder and ball. In fact, this is the way almost all modern cartridges (and many old ones) are loaded. To 'standardize' the compression
Click to expand...

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/bpcompress/bpcompress.html

Years ago i was on a board where a muzzleloader blows up horror story was discussed. Nearly everyone claimed a short started ball caused the gun to blow up. Then a guy who was at the range when the incident happened chimed in. Sitting on the shooters bench was a one pound can of medium burning rate smokeless powder.
 
B

B.L.E.

New member
I very strongly suspect that all of those short started balls that resulted in bulged barrels were actually short started in a barrel that had already been loaded and the short started ball was actually a bore obstruction for the first load already in the barrel.
My hypothesis is backed up by people being unable to blow up barrels by short starting the ball on purpose.

Anyway, it's still good practice to not shoot out a stuck ball, you may already have a load in the barrel that you didn't remember loading.
It's really easy if you are distracted by someone talking to you.
 
H

Hawg

New member
I can tell you this and you can make up your own mind as to whether it applies or not. When you load a paper cutter Sharp's whether with loose powder or paper cartridges there is no way you're going to have no air gap. There is no way you're going to have a compressed load. The design of the weapon guarantees you will never have either one. My Sharp's will hold 110 grains of loose 2F but I only use 80 which is the recommended charge, not that it really matters to me but it shoots pretty good with 80. The manual says not to have an air gap between bullet and powder but again there is no way you're going to fully accomplish that. You will have powder to bullet contact everywhere except the very top but there will be air there and even more if you have any elevation on it. I have seen you tube vids of people loading them with loose powder and then pointing the muzzle straight up and bumping it to get powder down into the flash channel but I have yet to see a pic of one blown up.
 
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