Will major shtf during us invasion of Iraq?

[simonov jr]

I hope i'm wrong, i really do, BUT: Sadam knows we are coming. He had 4000 metric tons of anthrax before the Gulf war and countless supplies of botulin and other biological agents. He had all the Sarin he could produce, etc. If a few envelopes of anthrax in the mail paralzed the mail system here last Oct., what lesson do YOU think he learned from it? If he didn't already have the stuff here before, it seems like he sure does now or will by then (only 2% of shipping containers inspected daily at our ports). I'm afraid I have to anticipate major ugly sadaam-sponsored unconventional terrorism in the states, based on his M.O. from the Gulf War. You may remember him torching all Kuwaiti wells, releasing crude into the Persian Gulf, kidnapping vips, etc. Are we now to think he'll just go quietly into the night? Nope, he'll launch an ugly war of payback wherever he and his agents can reach. It is also a certainty that he will SCUD Israel with some unconventional weapons, and might even draw a nuclear response. The media discusses it all like it will be a replay of toppling the Taleban, but I don't think so. I think all the wise will try to prepare for the invasion next year with some basic dry goods, potable water, ammo and perhaps some rudimentary nbc kit. All you really will need, imo, will be the ability to stay in your house for a month or so while the contagion and/or attacks play themselves out and/or the vaccines can contain it. Am I being unrealistic? Am I missing anything?

 

[Apple a Day]

We're not going to Iraq anytime soon... if ever.
The media has hyped an invasion of Iraq mostly to stir up the pot and to try to be 'first on the scene' by preempting the governement IMHO. The U.S. didn't rush in and the reporters were left standing around. I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

Actually, I believe that this is a combination of Media Hype and the planned fanning the flames by the US Government with the intent of putting enough fear in the high ranking military officers in Iraq that they overcome their fear of Saddam and stage a coup.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Are you being unrealistic? Yes. Are you missing anything? Common sense.

Saddam had all that and more at the start of the Gulf War and he knew we were coming, for months! He didn't damage anything significant outside of his area of occupation.

Seriously, if you honestly believed that you were located in an area that was going to suffer biological or chemical attack, such as you are suggesting, would you really be stupid enough to stay at home and wait for it to happen and then believe that your home is going to be all you need for protection?

Let's see, paranoid delusions combined with followed by belief in unrealistic solutions... Were you on the Clinton Cabinet?

 

[simonov jr]

A giant among us...

Are you being unrealistic? Yes. Are you missing anything? Common sense. Saddam had all that and more at the start of the Gulf War and he knew we were coming, for months! He didn't damage anything significant outside of his area of occupation.

He sent ballistic missile into Tel Aviv, was THAT outside the area of occupation? He invaded Kafji and sent ballistic missiles into Riyahd, was THAT outside the area of occupation? He released oil into the Persian Gulf that contaminated many nation's coastlines, was THAT outside the area of occupation? And of course he actually gassed Iranians and Kurds before the Gulf War. Other than THAT, you are really cranking...What policy school did you go to, cuz they must be really proud of you?

Oh, and it is really insightful comparing Sadam's reaction to a limited war with stated limited objectives, and that to an invasion which has his death as its goal. Teach us, oh enlightened one...

Seriously, if you honestly believed that you were located in an area that was going to suffer biological or chemical attack, such as you are suggesting,

"Seriously", I am puzzled because in my post I never mentioned my particular area as being a desired target more than any other. In fact, the Director of Homeland Security has said ALL US cities are targets and we should ALL be on alert- maybe you should straighten HIM out too...

would you really be stupid enough to stay at home and wait for it to happen and then believe that your home is going to be all you need for protection?

You could do motivational speaking, you communicate so well. I DID suggest people might want to have some basic nbc kit, so you DID get a fragment of information correct. Under the new and more lenient bell curves of today, that is like getting an A for effort! Unfortunately, I never said its use should be confined to the home, or even discussed locations at all for that matter. What now? Should I post twice so you can re-read and absorb them better? Ad hominums work better when you get the facts straight, didn't they teach you that at Harvard?

Oh, and since you are sharing your expertise on NBC defensive countermeasures, what is your source for saying that a home won't protect a person from NBC agents? It's funny but when I lived in Switzerland, they ALL labored under the delusion that their basement fallout shelters provided good protection from NBC attacks. I wonder now, were the ALL crazy, all 6 million of them? Sounds like you had better get over there...

I am really learning alot here, so please provide some supporting references that show that all the potentially used biological agents can penetrate doors and windows. If I recall correctly, even the US Army field manual recommends staying indoors in the event of an NBC attack, what the hell are THEY smoking? MORE misguideds for you to help out. Start with some name calling, I can see how effective that is for you... Oh, and I'm sure you know all about what kind of home I have, or you'd have never make such a presumptuous statement. What kind of material is my home made of? Wood? Brick? Cement? Which is better or worse and for what reason? I can't wait to hear all the common sense...

Let's see, paranoid delusions combined with followed by belief in unrealistic solutions... Were you on the Clinton Cabinet?

Paranoid delusions suggest fear of a non-existant threat. Are you trained to make such a medical diagnosis? What is your title?...Also, how does the fact that we have already suffered a bio attack in the last 6 mos help support your brilliant theory that fear of a bio-attack is "paranoid"? A less knowledgeable person might see that, and the warnings about Iraq funneling weapons of mass destruction to terrorsts from our govt., and deduce that there was an ACTUAL danger. Not you though, thanks for clearing everything up. I'll just wait for all the factual or authoritative material you have to support your opinions. Also, I COMPLETELY understand the condescending and ****-eating tone of your reply. It must be hard to live in a world where you are so right and others are so wrong. By the way, since you DO have so much expertise in bio/chem weapons or their applications, why don't you enlighten me on these few points:

What are the basic classes of chemical agents and their effects?

What are the primary bio-agents our CDC fears most (you know how "paranoid" they are), and how are they transmitted? Please don't forget the ones most adept at ringing doorbells and entering houses...Something tells me you missed your true calling and we're all going to be very impressed once you step up with some details for your insights...

 

[fivepaknh]

I think all the wise will try to prepare for the invasion next year with some basic dry goods, potable water, ammo and perhaps some rudimentary nbc kit. All you really will need, imo, will be the ability to stay in your house for a month or so while the contagion and/or attacks play themselves out and/or the vaccines can contain it.

Well somebody's buttons have been pushed.

Anyways...I really think the kind of fear you display in your first post is unwarranted. Sure, Iraq launched a few SCUDs outside it's borders. He had to lighten the punch just to get the greater range to reach Israel. He has no ability to really harm America. I wouldn't worry too much about Anthrax. Out of 285 million Americans, how many people were affected by the Anthrax attack? I'd say your odds for survival are pretty good. I'm not ready to dig out a shelter in the side of a mountain quite yet.
This kind of survivalist bullcrap is exactly what the antis look for to make us look like paranoid psychopaths. Have you ever been in MOPP 4? If you had this NBC survival kit, how long to you think you could wear the protective clothing for?
If Saddam decided to use any kind of chem/bio agents on the US, and it could definitely be linked to Iraq, Saddam would get a quick education on what real NBC capabilities are. I'm not positive, but isn't it US policy to use nuclear response to a NBC attack on the US?

 

[C.R.Sam]

Don't need pricey bombers or ICBMs to deliver conventional or bio weapons to the U.S.

Even easier if the goal is to terrorize rather than militarily defeat.

Chaos is cheap, look around you.

Sam

 

[dfaugh]

I do believe that there is a possibility (although somewhat slim) that Saddam, or someone can and will use bio-weapons against the U.S., in the near future...However, I feel that the potential that I personally will be affected is slim, and I'm not gonna alter my lifestyle (which is what they want) because of it...In short, I'm prepared, but not paranoid about it...

 

[Selfdfenz]

"He had 4000 metric tons of anthrax before the Gulf war..."

Somehow that seem like an unrealistically big number. It would take a rather large effort to produce that much material. If you are counting the weight of shells or bombs housing the material maybe, but 4000 metric tons of spores is hard to believe.
S-

 

[Lavan]

Isn't it strange

that a hint of war keeps just about everybody from paying attention to the fact that the average US citizen is losing ground in just trying to have medical care and a house their kids MAY be able to afford?

Smoke, mirrors, more smoke.

 

[simonov jr]

source...

He had 4000 metric tons of anthrax before the Gulf war..."

Somehow that seem like an unrealistically big number. It would take a rather large effort to produce that much material. If you are counting the weight of shells or bombs housing the material maybe, but 4000 metric tons of spores is hard to believe.
S-

let me try to source it. i believe it was Scott Ritter who said it on one of the cable news channels...let me see what I can find. As I recall, the spore was in a liquified form, vs. a granular powder. Also, I notice my "friend" hasn't been back to enlighten us...kind of what I figured.

Out of 285 million Americans, how many people were affected by the Anthrax attack?

Affected? I think millions of Americans had concerns about their own mail. How many people wore latex gloves to open it at the recommendation of USPS? How many postal employees were terrorized by just a couple of envelopes? Finally, how does the limited damage caused by one type of contagion, in a limited deployment, lead to a blanket conclusion about the lack of danger about other agents and means?

I'd say your odds for survival are pretty good. I'm not ready to dig out a shelter in the side of a mountain quite yet.
This kind of survivalist bullcrap is exactly what the antis look for to make us look like paranoid psychopaths.

Not sure how having some basic dry goods constitutes either digging out a mountainside or "survivalist bullcrap". I keep a flashlight in case there's a storm, is that also bullcrap? It is funny how suggesting a very light level of basic preparedness, food, water, and mask ( I said basic) gets such a gut-level reaction. What's the harm? Get a sack of dry rice and forget about it. But have some food on hand...sheesh.

Have you ever been in MOPP 4? If you had this NBC survival kit, how long to you think you could wear the protective clothing for?

Again, if you review my post, I suggested staying indoors as the primary means of staying out of harm's way. Where did I mention full NBC combat gear 24/7? If you want to disagree with me, fine, but can't you do it without mischaracterizing my statements?

 

[fivepaknh]

I think millions of Americans had concerns about their own mail. How many people wore latex gloves to open it at the recommendation of USPS?
All paranoid. Less than a dozen died from the anthrax. I'd worry more about food poisoning at the local restaurant, due to poor food handling, before I'd worry about anthrax in my mail.

All you really will need, imo, will be the ability to stay in your house for a month or so while the contagion and/or attacks play themselves out and/or the vaccines can contain it.
A month or so??!! I agree, it's not digging out a bunker in a mountainside, but it's still a bit extreme.

I keep a flashlight in case there's a storm, is that also bullcrap?
No it's not bullpoo-poo. I have a flashlight handy too. I just lost power last week. Though I can't remember the last time I need NBC gear or a months supply of dry goods.

I think we will be attacked again. I think a dirty nuke is a certainty in the next few years. I also think my odds are pretty good that my family and I won't be harmed. Maybe if I lived in a high profile target like NY or DC.

 

[Azrael256]

Just so everybody knows, the 4000 metric tons figure is accurate (as far as that idiot UN inspector knows), BUT...

The anthrax that saddam has is not the kind of high-grade weaponized stuff that we or the russkies have. saddam's stockpile is liquid, not powder, so 4000 metric tons isn't really inaccurate, but it translates to FAR less when compared to the effectiveness of powder.

 

[simonov jr]

well, make the case...

I think millions of Americans had concerns about their own mail. How many people wore latex gloves to open it at the recommendation of USPS?

All paranoid. Less than a dozen died from the anthrax.

At least two average citizens died from incidental exposure. The anthrax spores were found far and wide throughout the mail system, eg Indianapolis mail center had some spores, as did many others. A lady died in NYC and another in Vermont. What is your definition of paranoid? By the same logic, nobody should wear a seatbelt because statistically most trips don't result in an accident. What have you got besides the ability to call people paranoid?

I'd worry more about food poisoning at the local restaurant, due to poor food handling, before I'd worry about anthrax in my mail.

What is the fatality rate for botulism? What is the infection rate? I don't think you are being very consistant, though that is your right. Had you ever considered using, you know, facts and statistics to make your points? So what infection and/or mortality rate does a threat have to have before it qualifies as "non-paranoid" to you? your world all seems pretty subjective...

All you really will need, imo, will be the ability to stay in your house for a month or so while the contagion and/or attacks play themselves out and/or the vaccines can contain it.

A month or so??!! I agree, it's not digging out a bunker in a mountainside, but it's still a bit extreme.

Based on what? Your opinion and nothing more? My reasoning was based on the worst threat our own govt. has mentioned, a smallpox outbreak. it is a person to person contagion, hence the ability to stay out of human contact for a while. What have you got in the way of logic, facts or stats to counter either the prospect raised by our own govt (which is scrambling right now to make 200 million doses of smallpox vaccine) or the basic suggestion I made?

I keep a flashlight in case there's a storm, is that also bullcrap?
No it's not bullpoo-poo. I have a flashlight handy too. I just lost power last week. Though I can't remember the last time I need NBC gear or a months supply of dry goods.

I can't remember the last time 4 airplanes intentionally hit populated areas. What has that got to do with anything? I guess you aren't serious about doing anything more than making unsupported assertions. Hey, I know, why not diversify your argument by calling me some other unsupported things? You won't be required to prove any of the contentions you make, just reduce everything to the ridiculous and avoid specifics. If you are going to disagree, again, why not do so on the basis of facts?

I think we will be attacked again. I think a dirty nuke is a certainty in the next few years. I also think my odds are pretty good that my family and I won't be harmed. Maybe if I lived in a high profile target like NY or DC.

i think, i think, i think...I can't tell you why, but I think. is that all you wanted to do, tell me what you think? what is the basis for your expectation that we will be attacked? if you check, it's missing. what is the basis for the dirty nuke threat in particular? etc. finally, how do you tell a guy who is concerned about nbc attacks that he is paranoid, then tell him they are "a certainty", all in the same conversation and with a straight face? i'm sorry you wasted both our times...

 

[Jamie Young]

I think the reason we haven't attacked Iraq is because we KNOW they have something here. I personally think Saddam put an life insurance policy in place, in the last 8yrs, of protecting himself from being attacked by the US again. Sure we bomb them every other week but its only a radar site here, and a radar site there.

If any of those arab countries had their heads screwed on straight, all they need is a nuke on US soil to prevent us from making a move on them. Or for backing Israel for that matter.

Sneaking nuclear weapons onto US soil is the achilles heal of this countries military might. They don't need to use them...... just tell us they are here and ready to go off.

Its just My pranoid mind at work.

 

[fivepaknh]

I never disputed whether or not an attack will happen. I'm merely pointing out that of 285 million Americans it's unlikely you'll be affected. Not impossible, but improbable. There are much greater threats out there that most of us take little or no precautions on. And unless you want to live your whole life in fear, you can't guard against everything. Eat right, exercise, and die anyway.

i think, i think, i think...I can't tell you why, but I think. is that all you wanted to do, tell me what you think?
Yes, it's what I think. This is a discussion board for informal conversation. Just a bunch of gun enthusiast chatting. You really shouldn't get so emotional when someone disagrees. Stress is a bigger killer than anthrax.

However, I'll indulge you with facts and statistics if you like.

According to the CDC, from 1993 to 1997 there have been 2,751 outbreaks of food borne diseases reported. These outbreaks cause 86,058 people to become ill. Salmonella serotype Enteritidis accounted for the largest number of outbreaks, cases, and deaths .
http://www.cdc.gov/epo/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss4901a1.htm

E Coli - "Escherichia coli O157:H7 is an emerging cause of food borne illness. An estimated 73,000 cases of infection and 61 deaths occur in the United States each year."
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dbmd/diseaseinfo/escherichiacoli_g.htm

I used food poisoning as an example of bigger things to worry about than anthrax. Beside food poisoning, there are other threats and I can go on and on with statistics on each threat if you like.

By the same logic, nobody should wear a seatbelt because statistically most trips don't result in an accident.
Statistically, how many people die from opening their mail? My guess is more people died today from auto accidents than from mail. Unless they were hit by a mail truck.

What have you got in the way of logic, facts or stats to counter either the prospect raised by our own govt (which is scrambling right now to make 200 million doses of smallpox vaccine) or the basic suggestion I made?
The CDC expects about 286 million doses of smallpox vaccine to be available by the end of the year. That's it, I'm not leaving the house until December 31, 2002.
http://www.cdc.gov/nip/smallpox/Public.htm#Response

 

[Libertarian]

S. Jr., You are not crazy to be concerned with future attacks on the US. But, unless you live in NYC or DC you are fairly safe from anything terribly widespread (IMHO). However, since we had a water main break and the family was without water for four days, I always keep ten gallons of water on hand. I try to keep enough dry and canned goods on hand to eat for five - eight days without electricity. (Having lived in the Middle East and East Africa where the power is not the given it is here as shaped my views on what is safe and reliable.)

Even if we are not attacked by foriegn agents again we have hurricanes and snow storms in the US every year. My goal is to be able to survive a few days without ammenities and still have my cat walking around after it is all over.

(Remember to keep small trash bags to line the bucket you relieve yourself into. It makes for nicer clean up and storage.)

 

[Double Naught Spy]

You don't need to dig a shelter to look like a paranoid psychopath as alarmist posts like this do the trick already.

By the way, your house is going to protect you just fine from NBC attacks just like it protects you so well from dust and bugs - NOT!

 

[gburner]

Class.......

What do we call someone who proposes a scenario and/or asks for an opinion from the rest of us, then has an emotional outburst and sarcastically flames everyone who doesn't tell him/her what they want to hear? Raise your hand if you know the answer.

 

[sven]

(slowly raises hand)

".... is the answer 'Troll'?"

Good idea on the small bags for the toilet. I'll have to remember that one.