Will body armor make firearms obsolete?

Nightcrawler

New member
We've discussed future developments in firearms many times. The majority seem to think that caseless weapons will be the next step; they seem to offer advantages over standard types, though they have drawbacks.

Energy weapons have also been discussed, but these all await a suitable power supply, and all have their own limitations.

There's also railguns, but they are essentially projectile weapons with a different means of propulsion.

Anyway, a thought occured to me. I've heard that they've recently developed a soft armor that will stop 7.62x51mm point blank. Now, you'd still likely get your sternum shoved through your lungs from the impact, but the bullet apparently won't penetrate.

Current body armor will reliably stop pistol ammunition, from .22 short to .500 Linebaugh. This does have the potential to make handguns as they exist today obsolete; the limiting factor is that body armor is, generally, expensive bulky, and in many cases difficult to come by.

However, if the criminals in your neck of the woods used body armor more often than not, would you still feel secure with you .45 or .40, knowing that it wouldn't penetrate?

In the future, advances in materials technology could well develop thin, light, shock disbursing body armors that could reliably stop current service rounds cold; furthermore, if these advances rendered the materials cheap, the armor could be inexpensive and easy to get. Hard armor development, or different soft armor technologies could render current "armor piercing" designed cartridges like the FN 5.7mm no more effective than any other round as well.

So, if everyone is just as likely as not to have a vest that'll stop, say, everything from 9mm to 5.56x45, does that mean that the weapons we have are obsolete? Or are we going to start using .338s for home defense? Could such developments in body armor spur on the next generation of small arms development, in a rush to make the body armors obsolete?

For a comparison, imagine if you lived in 1875, and invented somehow a Level IIIA body armor vest. Concealable, light, and perfectly capable of stopping all of the common cartridges of the day. (The rounds of the period were generall anemic by our standards; even rifle rounds of the period were low velocity to the point where they wouldn't reliably penetrate modern soft armor.)

You would have, in essence, made most of the guns of the era obsolete. If you mass-produced the armor, and sold it at prices the average gunslinger or cowboy could afford, an arms race to develop weapons that could defeat the armor would begin.

See what I mean?
 

Jesse H

New member
Never been shot with or without armor before, but I'd imagine a .45 slug would still knock the wind out of you and bruise a few ribs even if u were wearing armor. :)

For a little guy like me, that's more than enough to convince me to stop whatever it was that caused you to open fire on my 135 lb frame.

But like your scenario said, if armor were readily and cheaply available that would lighten even blows from the big rifle calibers, I suppose handguns could become obsolete as a primary form of self defense or offense. No doubt I'd still be buying and enjoying guns at the range though.
 

AK103K

New member
What will the future body armor be, a ballistic body condom? Body armor is helpful and a comfort to the wearer, but is also false security. Knowing a person is wearing it, would only cause me to slightly change tactics and point of aim. If anything, the handgun becomes more useful, as it allows you to get in close without alarm, a rifle is moot, even a mediocre shot can hit a melon at a 100 yards. The only advantage is to stop stray or distant shots, fired without its knowledge, if it was known to be worn, why waste a round on it when softer targets on the body are available. The pelvis would be the target of choice as it is quickly disabling and potentially deadly. A person shot here looses the option of movement, and becomes an more stationary,
(although still deadly) target, and if the femoral artery is hit, quickly bleeds to death. As for heaver pistol rounds, and even rifle rounds hitting a vest, you need to watch the video put out by Second Chance Vests, The owner Rick Davis, shoots himself, or is shot by others with little or no harm, (including rifle fire) and has hundreds of accounts of instant return fire by police wearing the vest when shot by an assailant. Like I said, if you are aware of it, why waste time or ammo on it?
 

Bog

New member
Can't armour your face, and frankly I think it's gonna be a while before Armani start making three-piece-ballistic-suits.

So, leaving 60 to 70 percent of the meaty parts of the body available, including the bit at the top... No. Body armour, if it's sufficiently lacking in bulk to be a part of an everyday jacket - great. It's increasing your combat survivability. But it's not magical armour.

Knives still whistle through most ballistic fabrics quite happily, someone with a bow and arrow can ruin your whole day, and a hollowpoint through even the meaty part of your thigh or shoulder is going to, shall we say, negate your mobility. Or possibly limb-count depending on the round.

So let's say J.Random Loonie Bugger whips out his nine and you happen to draw a short straw. Bops into your armour, you sit on your butt with a nice bruise. But you've thought "Hey, he's probably got fibre inserts in his jacket too, most people do, I didn't bother with my pistol. Yes, I do feel silly indeed, now...".

I think that's the sort of thing that will happen once or twice tops before everyone's back down their gunshops to buy their .45s and their .357s back.
 

Apple a Day

New member
FN Five point seven mm round, Russian 5.45x18mm round, steel inserts/penetrators/sabots... the better the armor gets the better the AP rounds will get. It will probably always be a cat & mouse game. For every guy at the loom weaving a better vest there is some guy fiddling with a bullet mold to punch a hole through it and vice versa IMO.
 

Jim March

New member
It's easier to destroy than to create.

Option one: get something more accurate, and do headshots.

Two: carve a penetrator tip on a lathe out of good steel, and screw it into a JHP. Hell, you could probably turn one of those Cor-Bon "Powerballs" into an expanding AP round, by drilling in through the rubber ball and mounting the penetrator tip in that. There's still be enough rubber around the tip's base shaft to begin the expansion process just after entry (and past the armor).

Three: repeating crossbow with broadhead arrows.

That's just off the top of my head...
 
Sounds like a technology race and I doubt if guns will ever become obsolete. The tradeoff of any body armor is restricted mobility and freedom of movement. It's certainly better than when it first came out, but the more you protect, the more it's going to weigh and this affects mobility.

Now, when we get some sort of Star Trek "force field", we're talking handguns or rifles as we know it to be obsolete. Then again, the smalls will have evolved too.
 

Kaylee

New member
Weapons and armor have been racing each other for thousands of years -- no reason to think said race would stop anytime soon.

You make a better vest, someone else will make a better bullet -- say take that .45 ACP and put in a steel AP inside a sabot or som'n. Or....

.. we finally build masers. :D

-K
 

Karanas

New member
Armor will always have it's chinks. Even an M-1 Abrams is not invulnerable.
If I remember correctly, weren't those 2 idiots who starred in the infamous North Hollywood Shootout literally covered in body armor?
They gave the cops a good run for a while but their armor didn't save them in the end.
 

Quakemaster

New member
Body armor will no more make guns obselete than Hyram Maxim's machine gun with such lethality stopped wars (as he had hoped). Guns did not make knives obselete.

While most common body armor will stop handgun ammo, it has not made handguns obselete and people with body armor still continue to get killed with guns their armor will defeat if the armor is hit, but it isn't the armor that is getting hit.

There is body armor that will stop large caliber bullets and we still have guns and we still have armor.

While we may have body armor, we seem to be lacking a goodly amount of appendage and head armor (inclusive of face armor).
 

melglock

New member
I'll bet that we'll eventually see more powerful firearms - caseless guns are one possibility, so are directed energy weapons (lasers) or electromagnetic slugthrowers (railguns.) But before we see those, I can see building pistols with stronger chambers & barrels and more powerful propellants in the cartridges.

Mmmmm, 125gr. 9mm JHP travelling at 3000 fps. That should sting a bit.
 

Nightcrawler

New member
I think my question was misinterpreted. I'm not talking about what we have for armor now. I'm saying armor of the future.

Let us talk about battlefield use of armor, as well. What if in the future soldiers wear hard armor suits that are fully NBC sealed and will stop all current service cartridges.

I think that if this happened, current projectile weapons would be obsolete, and the focus would be on developing a new weapon that was just as portable as a rifle but could defeat the new armor.

Does that make more sense?
 

Jim V

New member
Future body armor that is self contained will need a power source of some type for cooling and air exchange or the person inside will either roast or sufficate. There will also have to be provisions for waste elimination. Repowering the suit or cleaning it out will leave the wearer unprotected at some point. Then ding 'em.
 
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