Will a new 1911 barrel "drop in"

[audie]

I have a sistema colt and the barrel is pretty shot. I have found a replacement that is also a sistema barrel. Can I just drop it in? I am not looking for match quality or anything, just good rifling and a "military" fit. but I don't want to do anything unsafe, or anything that could damage the gun.

What do I need to check?

1. headspace. Ok, I get the gages...then what? btw, I have headspaced rifles, but I know a 1911 is a different animal all together.

2. Anything else I have to check, such as space between the hood and breech? and how should I do that exactly?

any help appreciated. If you could be specific step by step without a lot of theory...that would be ideal.

 

[cntryboy1289]

Welcome to the forum

First off, welcome to the forum Audie!

Now, when it comes to drop in barrels, if the barrel's lugs match the lugs in the frame and the hood matches the frame as well as it doesn't need to be fitted anywhere else, it will drop in for you. You may get lucky and the barrel drops right in and since you aren't too concerned with accuracy you may be just fine. If on the other hand you decide you want to get better accuracy, take it to a smith and let him oder you a barrel and fit it for you including fitting the bushing to it as well.

What I would check is hood fit and then see if you have sufficient lock up with it. Simple check would be to measuer with a depth gauge between the hood of the ramp and the frame. You can use a caliper if you don't have the depth micrometer. Then slide the frame back and slip a penny between the top of the hood and the frame. Then measure the gap between them. Subtract the difference between the two. If you plan to shoot this gun very much, you should have better than .025" lockup, otherwise you will be having to do some work on it very soon. I would also check the gun for by racking the slide back and grasping the barrel with your fingers and then let the gun hang. The slide should be pushed forward and your fingers pushed free from the barrel. If it doesn't, I would take it to a smith and let him fit the barrel for you.

As far as the lug engagement goes, mark the top of the barrel lugs with magic marker and then put the gun back together and rack the slide back and forth. You should have almost all of the marker wiped clean by the engagement of the lugs. If it doesn't, once again, take to a smith and let him fit the barrel for you. I would also do one other test. Take a gun and press the slide stop out of the fram but leave the leg still in it. Push down on the barrel and see if the slide stop will swivel around without any problems with binding. If it does, take it to a smith and let him fit it for you. Hope these tests help you out. Like I said several times before, if the gun fails any of these tests, it needs to be fitted by a smith or someone that knows what he is doing when it comes to fitting a barrel to the gun. Good luck with it.

 

[audie]

thanks! I am still a little unclear about the penny thing. You mean to measure the distance between the barrel hood when locked up to the breech face? I am unsure what you mean by frame. And how does the penny figure into this...I can't really visualize that.

btw, I had a feeling this wouldn't be as easy as a simple swap! this help is appreciated, even if it educates me into taking it to a smith or just shooting it with the barrel that matches the gun. (all serial numbers match, so worn barrel is original to gun, the new one is a serial numbered sistema, but doesn't match of course).

 

[cntryboy1289]

explanation

Audie, the penny is just a device to hold the barrel. What I am talking about it is the amount of lockup the barrel has between it's lugs and the lugs in the slide. Picture the barrel hood sitting in the slide. Measure the distance from the top of the hood to the bottom of the slide. Then push the slide rearward which will disengage the lugs of the barrel from the lugs in the slide and slip a penny between the barrel hood and the slide and then remeasure this gap between the hood and bottom of the slide. When we subtract the first measurement from the second measurement, we should get the amount of lockup, which is the engagement of the barrel lugs into the slide lugs. Like I said earlier, you can get by with only .025" of lockup if you only plan to shoot the pistol now and then and let it sit in a holster. If you plan to shoot the gun very much, you will want as much lockup as you can get. The way most people get more lockup is to use a longer barrel link which will push the barrel up into engagement more. The only problem with this is there comes a time when you can lock the gun up with too long of a link so it needs to be fitted by a smith to make sure the gun will function. You can of course buy a longer link and install it, but you still need to know how to check it for function.

I would suggest you get a good book on the 45ACP and read it to learn as much as you can before you take it to a smith and let him fit the parts for you if the checks I mentioned earleir fail when you put the new barrel in. You can do the checks I mentioned and know if there will be a problem with the barrel. The reason I say read and learn as much as you can before you take it to a smith is there are some folks that will sell you every part they have when you take the gun to them when you only are after a decent working gun and don't need all of the aftermarket parts just so it looks pretty. Good luck with it and ask a question if you have them.

 

[Harry Bonar]

drop-in bbl on 1911

Dear Shooter:
Beware of ANYTHING advertised as "drop-in" on any gun usually they require fitting by a knowledgable gun-smith - and- if a "drop-in" part actually "drops-in" it's loose!
Harry B.

 

[Unclenick]

Audie,

If the original barrel and the new one are standard parts from the same factory for the same model and are both within factory specs, then yes, they should be interchangeable. This assumes your slide (the part you pull back to load the gun) and frame (the part you push the magazine into and which has all the levers and buttons attached to it and, most importantly to government bureaucrats, has the serial number stamped into it) have not been shot out of spec. The problem is all these assumptions. Having a knowledgeable 1911 smith do a detail stripping (pull everything apart, including removing the mainspring from its housing and all that jazz) and detail cleaning and inspection with the new part in place is a very, very good idea. The gunsmith can check everything from barrel engagement and timing to disconnector timing and extractor tension. The reasons this is valuable are that some guns in the past have had some parts that weren’t quite up to snuff and have worn or bent or otherwise failed. Putting in a new part that hasn’t worn together with the old ones will occasionally push something over the edge.

Having said all that, this isn’t rocket science. If you want to learn it for yourself, I applaud that because you will be able to monitor your gun’s condition into the future and that provides maximum safety. I second Countryboy’s suggestion that you get a good book on the subject. Even if you never do the work yourself, better understanding the mechanism and what affects it makes you safer. Better knowing the terminology will enable you to have a more informed conversation with a gunsmith about what might need to be done with it? For a beginning, I would get Hallock’s .45 Auto Handbook, by Ken Hallock. Hallock was a U.S.A.F. Marksmanship School armorer. Russ Carniak once told me Hallock had been his teacher in the Air Force. The information is not elaborate but is very practical. There are good drawings of the gun and the clearest part schematic drawing I’ve seen is included as a fold-out. It relies less on specialized tooling than the next book I’ll mention, which is: The Colt .45 Automatic, A Shop Manual, by Jerry Kuhnhausen. This is the most elaborate and detailed 1911 gunsmithing book. It lays out disassembling and inspecting everything in these guns, using the Colt as the exemplar. It includes photos of what many unacceptably worn parts look like. This is a book you will want to add to your shelf if you think you may ever start working seriously on these guns and want ideas for what parts and tools to acquire? It also differs in some methods from Hallock. All the gunsmithing books differ in some methods, and reading more than one to get a sense of possibilities is important for working on them much.

I know Brownells carries the Kuhnhausen book, but try Amazon. Alibris and Google or Froogle to find the current best prices on either one.

Good luck with it.

Nick

 

[audie]

thanks guys. I have already detail stripped and cleaned the pistol. everything looks good and functions properly. the new barrel is also a sistema. I will check the lock up and perform the tests mentioned...I will also check headspace.

I will also check out those books...thanks for the help.

 

[audie]

It passed all the tests and just dropped in. Of course the barrel is a sistema replacement, so I think that was expected. The old barrel was a bit shot I think, this new one locks in better. Cases had no dents after 150 rounds, and I can see no battering on the new barrel anywhere....guess I was lucky.

 

[Monkey]

Not a Sistema story, but.........

My father was, among other things, a Battalion Armorer at Ft. Campbell (wanna guess what my middle name is?), KY, prior to going overseas in WWII.

He told me that it was not uncommon to get M1911's on his desk that needed new barrels, usually from neglect - seriously rusted. He told me a story of a 1st LT that dropped his gun in a puddle, wiped off the outside then put it away for a couple of days before taking it in "cause something's wrong with it."

According to him, he would requisition a new barrel and drop it in. He said that he usually didn't do any fitting at all, and if he had to, it was with a file. As I understand it, there was tons of slop in these guns. I guess that's what made them so reliable. Now that I think of it, maybe this is how they got the reputation of being inaccurate.

Anyway, kind of off topic, I know. Just thought it was interesting.

 

[audie]

very interesting. there is a lot of slop in most military weapons of the period. I collect carbines too....they are rattle traps....but you can hit a man size target at 100 yards...good enough right.

the pistol was only really good in combat at extremely close ranges....3-5 feet. I read marines in the pacific slept with them on half cock in their hands as the Japs like to infiltrate and jump into holes at night. In that circumstance a rifle is useless (unless it is used as a club)...the 45 didn't need to be accurate, it needed to work and work with one round fired.

[edited] my other comment was not thought out...LOL...thanks for the story about your father, makes my amateur smithing seem more "genuine" now.

 

[MISFIRE]

Drop in barrels

Brownells has a big selection of match grade drop in barrels. I bought a Storm Lake "drop in" match grade barrel and bushing for my P-14. I had to have Kings drop it in. It was a mediocre shooter out of the box. I asked them also to install a Wilson Group Gripper from Brownells. It's a two piece guide rod replacement with a special link that puts a rearward/upward force on the barrel to lock it up more consistently in the slide. They refused to install it. "Not reliable". I put the Gripper thing in myself. That P14 is now the best shooter in my gun safe. With all that I've read now on the 1911 design, since the sights are on the slide, not on the barrel, the key to accuracy is close tolerances with consistent lock up. Now, with a Cylinder and Slide ramp/throat polishing, it also feeds as reliably as any of my autos ( Berettas, Sigs, HK's, Colts, Kimber) which, by the way, is not 100 % in any of them. Somewhere along the way every one of them ( the P220 only twice ) has failed to feed with factory hardball. I know all that stuff about magazines. Mine are all excellent with no correlation to the failures. I love to shoot them but unless I was a LOE and felt that I needed the firepower, if my life depended on a handgun, it would be a revolver (preferably a Ruger ) every time. The Gripper thing has gone through 3000 rounds now with no problem.

 

[Unclenick]

Group grippers can work in some guns. The main thing is that you have to have a full power hardball level recoil spring installed. If you try to use it with reduced power recoil springs it can cause some failures to go into battery.

Nick

 

[Bill DeShivs]

These guns were designed for parts interchangeability. Certainly, they can be accurized, but they are going to be accurate that more than 3 or 4 feet regardless. Even loose fitting, G.I.-type guns can outshoot most people.
Bill

 

[RickB]

I have a "gunsmith fit" KKM barrel in one of my guns. I bought a Storm Lake "drop-in" barrel to replace it, as the "gunsmith" did a less than sterling job, with what may have been a duff barrel to begin with. The new barrel has a wide-enough hood that it won't go in at all, and that hood is a few thousandths longer than the one in the gun. The lower lugs are meaty enough that a large-ish slidestop binds on a standard link. The muzzle end of the drop-in is .001" larger in diameter than the old one, too. With any luck, only a bit of hood narrowing will allow the drop-in barrel to drop in.