Wild flyers

flyboyjake

New member
Ladder testing on 180gr Hornady eld-m. Pushing between 2900-3050 fps in 7mm rem mag. 28" tube 8.5 twist. Above and to the right of each target is the group shot at that target. 4 of the 5 groups held fairly well, except... There are only 3 or 4 holes and 5 were shot. On the bottom right target, they flew wild and one keyholed. Upper left, only 3 hit, but they all hit at .3 moa. -CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED- is going on. These bullets should be stabilized, but even if they weren't, they wouldn't be grouping so well for the ones that made the target would they?

(The picture is rotated 90 degrees counter clockwise for Target reference)
 

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flyboyjake

New member
I hand weighed each charge to within .1 gr. Consistent cheek weld, but with very little parallax, I don't think it would be possible to have a big enough alignment issue to make these problems. Also I don't think that would explain the keyhole on one of the rounds.

Is it possible it's a fouling issue? Trying for copper equilibrium so it's not been cleaned of copper for 200 rounds, but it's cleaned for carbon every 50 or so. It's driving me nuts
 

Mobuck

Moderator
ANYTIME you see a "keyhole" on target, you have a stability issue or the bullet clipped something. Bullets as long as the 180 grain .284 can be touchy. It would seem that 1-8.5 twist would me adequate at the velocity you stated but maybe not.
Bore fouling may make a diff in overall group size but I doubt it's going to start throwing "keyholes".
I have a barrel that displays significant instability with a specific bullet weight. Upon close inspection of a paper target, there's evidence of yawing on most of the holes but actual "keyholing" is not often seen. Keep in mind that those "keyhole" bullets aren't flying sidewise all the time but tumbling downrange so only at a certain spot in their flight are they side on to make those classic "keyholes". Also keep in mind that a tumbling bullet may not stay on a 24" x 24" target at 25 yards so being just a few inches out of the group @ 100 yards isn't likely unless the loss of stability is showing up close to the target.
 

flyboyjake

New member
Interesting. I hope you're wing about the stability... The strange thing is that with lower powder charges, the groups all contained 5 shots, and as they got faster they lost a shot. Maybe the shots just went into the same hole? Lol.

On the string of -CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED-s that produced the keyhole, 2 of the cases came out of the chamber with bent case mouths. I was a bit baffled by this as well. I eject them slowly
 

RC20

New member
I have had a few rounds that never hit the target. What the hey

Next shot right where it should be

Keyholes are a stability issue. How long is the throat?
 

FrankenMauser

New member
Well... That's what I get for posting while tired. I completely missed the mention of keyholing, and didn't see it on the target.
 

flyboyjake

New member
Chamber is .005 under saami minimum (long story). This coming from an rcbs headspace gauge and fire formed brass. and I'm loading .02 off the lands. I'm going to back it off to .03 and more and try the groups again.

What's worse is that not only was it keyholed, but that group was wildly inaccurate, even with the rounds that didn't keyhole.

It's so bizarre. .2 and .5 moa with the bullets that made it on. Stability calculator shows well into stable territory. Could the rifling be gummed up enough with copper in 200 shots to slow the twist?
 

Pathfinder45

New member
Well, if it weren't for the keyhole, I would have asked if there was any possibility you could be flinching. But the keyhole is a rock-solid alibi. So your twist may not be fast enough for those bullets. Try some shorter bullets, perhaps 160 grains.
 
I suspect bullet core stripping. The fast twist and high velocity can spin a bullet up fast enough that the rotational force accelerates the jacket so rapidly at the peak pressure that the core beneath it loses adhesion to the jacket and slips inside it, never spinning as fast as the jacket does. When the bullet clears the muzzle, the spin settles at a rate determined by the moments of inertia of the core and jacket, settling somewhere in between, but closer to the rate the core was spinning when they left the muzzle because it has greater inertia.

Harold Vaughn demonstrated this happening in a .270 Winchester with some bullets at about 3100 fps, and that was with a slower 10" twist. How easily it happens depends on how the bullet was made. It can't happen with a solid and is unlikely with a bonded core. But match bullets aren't necessarily going to have the best bonds.

Since it is happening only every fifth shot or so, I would say you are on the ragged edge of stripping the cores at your current velocity. Try turning it down to 2800 fps and see if it doesn't stop happening. That would be proof of concept if it does.
 

flyboyjake

New member
Nick, I suspect you are on to something. 5 groups at slower speeds all kept the 5th shot on paper. Hornady 180 eld-m. I'm going to be fairly dissatisfied if I can't push these to Max for a 7rem. Sure rules them out for the 7rum.

I'm going to try another set in The high speed realm again
 
Flyboyjake,

The link is more evidence of core stripping. I don't automatically accept the diagnosis that the puffs of dirt reported are actually due to bullets coming apart. I've had 168-grain SMK's at .308 Win velocities exhibit their transonic dynamic instability issue at about 700 yards and hook off and make puffs of dirt all around a 750-yard popper target, but I know darn well they weren't coming apart at that speed. They were just hooking around the target, which tumbling end-over-end causes. Where in the trajectory they start to turn end-over-end will vary with how much the core was unbalancing the bullet after having slipped over the "speed bumps" where the inside of the jacket mirrors the land impressions.

The thinner the jacket, the more pronounced those speed bumps are, and match bullets typically have thin jackets because thin jacket cups are easier to form with uniform wall thickness than thick ones are. But that also means they don't have as strong a grip on the core as a thick jacket does. The grip is due to spring-back pressure created by swaging the core in with the jacket surrounded by a die. This expands the jacket against the die, but it is more elastic than the lead, so it springs back inward against the core, gripping it. The thicker the jacket is, the stronger its grip.

I suspect the reason some folks are achieving your velocity without core stripping is due to a couple of contributing factors: One influence would be getting the last 50 fps or so from having a 26" barrel instead of a 24" barrel. The speed isn't the problem, it's how high the rotational acceleration gets at the pressure peak. Acceleration near the muzzle is caused by lower gas pressure, so it slower and doesn't appreciably stress the core and jacket relationship further.

The other factor would be use of a slower, more progressive burning powder. For any given muzzle velocity, the slower the powder, the lower the peak pressure and the lower the peak acceleration. Late-barrel acceleration makes up the velocity difference by virtue of the slower powder having a larger total charge that makes more total gas and therefore loses less pressure after the bullet passes the peak pressure location (usually within the first couple of inches of travel down the bore).

So, going to a slower powder is another thing you can try to tame the core stripping with since you seem to have already demonstrated that lower velocity from your current powder doesn't cause the problem.
 
Not sure how Hornady would know what the thread's OP has by way of barrel length or what powder he is using, as he didn't give any information other than the maker (whose 7mm barrels come in 24",26", and 28" lengths). Squeeeeze did report his discussion with Hornady and said they suggested he might have a tight barrel. That strikes me as an odd explanation. Bullets normally shoot fine through a range of barrel diameter specs. For example, a lot of 308 Win Palma match barrels have .365" groove diameters to help squeeze maximum velocity from the ammunition, but that doesn't degrade their accuracy, obviously, much less make bullets come apart.

I think flyboyjake proved he is getting core stripping when he found slower velocity loads didn't cause the problem. I think I'll join that forum and suggest the core stripping explanation and how to prove it to themselves.
 

flyboyjake

New member
The twist rate and velocity of some of the posters 7rums are faster and higher than I am shooting. I was sitting on a very hot day and in the sun. It was very hard to cool the barrel between shots, and it got much warmer than I like. I wonder if A. The slight change in barrel dimensions due to the heat, combined with B. The lead core softening while the round is chambered waiting for it's shot in a hot chamber, thus reducing the friction between it and the jacket. I'm going to try more today and report.

I joined that page, but I can't post or message yet because I'm a danger to society until my forum probation ends. I hope it's just a day.
 

flyboyjake

New member
Tested again today. I made up 50 rounds with powder charges from within the realm where I was seeing problems. 2 keyholes and 2 missing shots out of 50. The first keyhole occurred on the first group, the other 3 were in the last 10 shots fired. I let the barrel cool between shots and between strings. I find a pretty strong correlation to the heat in the barrel based on the other day, but also a strong correlation to powder charges.

Target is groups of 5. I had a promising one I'll duplicate, but I'm not sold this next box of bullets won't have the same problems. As Nick suggests, maybe a slower powder

Beware eldm bullets. I'll be talking with Hornady, but they don't seem terribly resilient (however, when they work, they really work)
 

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