Wild animals

BlueTrain

New member
Normally I don't think there is much of a threat from wild animals while you're in the fields and woods but a TV news item started me thinking again. Some fellow was attacked by a mountain lion somewhere out west. He looked like the loser in a rough boxing match. Maybe such things are not so rare after all.

I live in Virginia but I don't think there are any lions around and probably no wolves. There are bears to be sure but I've never seen any dogs in the woods anywhere. But there is always a first time. In any case, large animals really aren't so common anyway. Just ask any deer hunter and that's why its called hunting.

The point of my posting is not caliber or revolver versus automatic but I am limiting my thinking to handguns only. No rifles and no handrifles that have a bipod and a sling. You get the idea. But the problem lies along other lines. What happens if you see a dangerous wild animal? What do you do?

If the wild animal is a lion, you probably won't see it at all until it on top of you, judging from all reports, if which case the issue is resolved (meaning it is time to do something). But what do you do if you see something, anything, dangerous 60 or 80 yards down the trail? Assuming you are actually armed, which is the whole point here, I suppose the thing to do would be to make ready for the possibility of shooting something. At this point it is worth mentioning that if you have a gun, it has to be carried in a conventional fashion, that is, not carried inside your pack but in a holster where you can reach it. So then the question becomes, when do you start shooting? Here again, we assume that shooting will not land you in more trouble than not shooting, legally speaking.

There have been several threads here about selecting a handgun for such a use but next to no useful information about precisely how your handgun would be most usefully employed in the event of a dangerous beast suddenly appearing. Again I assume that actually carrying the handgun is not part of the problem. Thinking back over all the articles I have read in gun magazines (there have been none on the subject anywhere else), precious little has been mentioned about my particular question. Elmer Keith probably would have had the best advice on the subject but even he barely mentioned it. The one instance I recall him mentioning involved a mountain goat or sheep that he encountered on some narrow mountain trail. He drew his gun but managed to talk the animal into leaving the scene. That requires a lot of cooperation on the part of the animal, however.

Another article related advice from some long dead African hunter on the subject. Presumably the subject was of more interest 75 years ago. Anyhow, I gather the original author was of the opinion that it would be a literal face to face encounter that you would have to deal with and even went so far to suggest that your handgun would be most effective if the muzzle were touching the animal!

Is it time to update that suggestion? Or should one expect an encounter with a dangerous animal to end up like that?

Along the same lines, the original .38 ACP and later the .38 Super were advertised as back up handguns for big game hunters. There was never any mention of how you should carry the pistol.
 

WSM MAGNUM

New member
A couple from Montana were out riding on the range, he with his rifle and she (fortunately) with her camera. Their dogs always followed them, but on this occasion a mountain lion decided that he wanted to stalk the dogs (you'll see the dogs in the background watching). Very, very bad decision...The hunter got off the mule with his rifle and decided to shoot in the air to scare away the lion, but before he could get off a shot, the lion charged in and decided he wanted a piece of those dogs. With that, the mule took off and decided he wanted a piece of that lion. That's when all hell broke loose.

As the lion approached the dogs the mule snatched him up by the tail and started whirling him around, banging its head on the ground on every pass.

He dropped him, stomped on him and held him to the ground by the throat. The mule got down on his knees and bit the thing all over a couple of dozen times to make sure it was dead, whipped it into the air again, then walked back over to the couple (that were stunned in silence) and stood there ready to continue his ride...as if nothing had just happened.

Fortunately, even though the hunter didn't get off a shot, his wife got off these 4.
 

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BlueTrain

New member
Wow! Not something you read about every day. It looks more like a horse, though. So much for lions. There was a photo published in National Geographic (not recently) of an African lion with a broken jaw who came off second best with a Zebra.

On reading over my post, it occured to me that the same questions are there no matter what you are armed with, although with a rifle, your range of options literally increases. Usually, however, you would only have a rifle if you were hunting, except perhaps in Alaska, and my senario was limited to a defensive situation only.
 

rantingredneck

New member
Now that's a good mule...........


In my neck of the woods, coyotes and black bears are the only wild animals I have to worry about. Coyotes aren't much of a threat I don't think as they typically avoid people, but I really don't want to put that theory to the test. I saw a couple during deer season this past year that were pushing the 50lb. mark and didn't seem all that concerned that I was there, until I shot them. I've only run across a few black bears in the woods and in every case I saw them and they didn't see me. I kept alert and kept them covered until they were well out of sight and stayed away from the direction in which they left.

The biggest problem I've had with aggressive animals in the woods around here are domesticated dogs that people just let run loose. Even though most counties around here have leash laws, people forget about those when they live out in the country. I've been charged and growled at on more than one occasion by pit bulls, rottweilers and others that I don't want to tangle with. Never have yet had to shoot one but I came close once. About 5 years ago my nephew (who was about 9 at the time) had gone deer hunting with me. We were walking back to the truck at about dusk when I hear something running toward us from the direction we just came. I turn to see a pitbull coming after us growling. I shoved my nephew behind me and leveled my shotgun on the dog. Two more were behind him about 20 yards. I kept him covered and yelled at him at which he and his two friends turned and left.


Maybe I just need to get a mule.
 

Socrates

Moderator
from one of the snoop sites::

"Mule Attacks Mountain Lion
Analysis
More of this Feature
• Email Examples
• Image #1
• Image #2
• Image #3
• Image #4


Comments: Thus far, we have received reports that the preceding photos were taken in Wyoming, Arizona, New Mexico, and Montana. It can't be all four, obviously, so prudence dictates that we take the various anecdotes accompanying these images with a grain of salt — including the claim that the mule attacked and killed the mountain lion, which frankly appears lifeless throughout the series of photographs (see update below).

Those issues aside, the American Donkey and Mule Society says the images could be authentic and do show "exactly the mode of attack a mule or donkey would use" in fending off a predator (both have been known to attack dogs in this fashion). "While we are neither supporting nor condemning the photos," the ADMS Website says, "we do believe them to be a true depiction of what a mule or donkey would do faced with the situation of a predator invading their territory."

2005 Update: According to Steven Richards of Western Mule Magazine, the incident documented in the photographs actually took place in southwestern New Mexico in 2002 or 2003. The mule, named Berry, is owned by a hunter named Jody Anglin. Contrary to email reports, the mountain lion was already dead when Berry the mule "attacked" it, according to Anglin. "

Still, fun...

S
 

sanson

New member
sorry to change the subject but rantingredneck fired me up in regards to wild dogs. I'm in rural N.Florida with 11 wooded acres and always take my mustang along when doing the walk-around with my 9yr old son. reason being my neighbors all have MANY pitbulls, rotties, mastiffs ALL loose 24/7..I've seen them in packs on MY land. I'll be damned if I gotta watch one of these nasty mutts tearing apart my son on my own land.
 

mete

New member
Feral dogs in packs [including pets that run with them ] can be extremely dangerous. If there are packs in your area always be well armed when in the woods !!!
 

rantingredneck

New member
Indeed. I keep at a minimum my P89 with me when I'm out in the woods unless I'm bowhunting (illegal to carry firearm at that time) in which case I carry a large Ek Bowie and don't take kids with me. But if I'm just out walking the farms I hunt checking for sign or checking on my stands/foodplots I'll be armed.
 

sanson

New member
the problem with kids is they run away from the dogs which trigger an attack. the dogs think if you're fleeing, you MUST be food.
 

Socrates

Moderator
I had a similar experience in Ocean Beach, San Francisco.

Drunk Mexican, pulled up in a pickup truck, with an off lead, huge pitbull. Good news is like most well breed pits, it was more intrested in other dogs then us, though it did come up and sniff my girlfriend. If that dog had attacked, there is NOTHING I could really have done to stop it.

I'd start thinking .357 with 158 grain bullets, and go up in caliber and bullet weight, from there as a minimum. Dogs are hard to hit, and, when you hit them, they don't realize they are supposed to go down.

Somewhere on the net, a pitbull was causing trouble, and the police tasered a bunch of times, and, it just kept coming back for more. Scary.
I've REALLY got to get some pepper or bear spray...

S
 

rantingredneck

New member
I mentioned my minimum carry in the woods, but didn't mention my typical carry. Ruger SRH .454 with Hornady 240gr XTP MAGs or Corbon 200 gr. +P's. :D
 

Samurai

New member
The question you raised brings up several more questions:

Are you on Federal Park property? (Rules about shooting wildlife are probably more strict in the Smokies.)

Are there people around? Are you on a hiking trail, where some stranger is going to see you brandishing?

As a general rule, it is illegal to shoot endangered or protected species. You can claim self-defense, and it works sort of like self-defense of a human. BUT, it is NOT illegal to draw down on an animal. Your only concern with drawing is that someone might see you and freak out. Then, you'll have a brandishing charge, and perhaps an aggravated assault charge against you.

(You're in Virginia, so I'm assuming we're talking about the Black Bears, here.) At 80 yards away, I wouldn't worry about drawing down. Now, at 20 yards, I'd remove the weapon from the holster, and have it in my hand.

The big point is, if you see a bear, be moving away! Don't just stand there like Dirty Harry and wait for it to charge so you can shoot it. There's a reason the animal is protected; we need to let them go and repopulate the species. Draw your gun, but also, go back to your car and drive away.

Three important rules about Black Bears:
1. They are stupid. They don't know what a gun is, and they don't know you can hurt them. They just know your picnic basket smells REALLY good! Get your picnic basket AND YOURSELF away from them, or they might just come try a bite!
2. They are VERY good parents. If you touch their cubs, they will kill you, end of story. Don't pet the cubs; I don't care how cute they are. Don't step between the cubs and the momma. In fact, if you see some bear cubs, RUN!!!
3. They are strong and fast, but they can't open doors. They can be on you in a heartbeat! If you see them, DON'T stand behind your car door taking pictures. GET IN YOUR CAR!!! Take pictures from your car.
 

tomh1426

New member
I think that if you incounter a potentialy dangerous animal and feel thretened by Its actions shoot it.
Im not going to wait until my barrel is touching fur.
Id rather go to court than the hospital.
Of coarse every situation is different so Its hard to say exactly what you think you should do.
 

cochise

New member
Very intersting thread.
Now back to the questions of carrying methods.

Here in Fl if you venture into the rural areas I have encountered snakes, alligators, black bear, dogs, and the crack head dopers. I understand the 4 legged critters but the scum bags are no where close to roads, and probably living in the bush growing their pot.

All the the ocassions caught me by surprise. I am not stupid and try to be in tune with my surroundings. Perhaps that is why I never got more than just surprised. Ok enough rambling.

I usually carry a revolver in an open or thumb break holster on my hip. I used a Tom - Three -Persons type once and nearly dislocated my hip. I forgot to undo the strap.:D I have a shirt over it so no one can see my weapon. I am able to draw and fire pretty good. I shoot from the hip. I killed one rattler, one german shepard, one hog, one gator [friend shot it quicker], and almost 4 or 5 crack heads. The scumbags scared me the most.

My killing guns were S&W 696 .44 spcl, S&W 29 4" .44 mag, and a S&W model 60, .38 spcl. These are my choices. At one time I had over 43 handguns so I had a pretty good idea what I like when I hike or canoe in the back country.
 

salvadore

Moderator
Never go in the woods fearing wild animals, buy a gun and let them fear you. I like large calibers in bear country, even a .45 acp gives me a secure feeling.
 

bloodtrail

New member
Being a hunter......I can say that when your in the woods/wild....and you encounter an animal. In the case where the animal is 20 to 80 yards away or whatever it may be.....You just "know" how to read the animal and what its intentions may be. I would be on "guard" and potentialy ready if the situation arrises. But in most instances the animal wants no part of you....and will leave the area. Im sure in all cases that is not the case....But in general odds are the animal wont be in your eye sight for long!
If you get blind sided and some animal attacks out of know where, then its a case of either "you or the beast" one has to do what ever it takes.
But I wouldnt get worked up just seeing an animal 80 yards away and assume its coming after you and start blazing away......Now maybe if it starts coming my way and has a look on its face that Im its next meal! Then I will make a decision at the 20 yard mark!
 

22-rimfire

New member
In Virginia or the Appalachians in general, the only significant wild animal that could pose a problem is a black bear. Animals that are subject to catching and potentially spreading rabies are another issue. These are typically raccoons, skunks, and dogs mostly. Other potential threat animals include wild dogs and a feral pig. There have been reports of mountain lions in the Blue Ridge. Most are unconfirmed, but I don't know what it takes for a confirmed sighting... two witnesses? Being attacked?

I have encountered black bears close up in the woods. They are usually more afraid of you than you them. But there is always the possibility of something happening. In a woods setting (say along a trail), I'd say 50 yds is a fairly safe distance, although a bear can cover 50 yds in seconds if it is intent on attacking you. I generally just watch them, but if I get uncomfortable with their behavior, I make some noise, raise my arms, shout etc. My first thought is not to draw a handgun. It is to take a picture!

There is also bear spray that you can carry for close up encounters.

As far as wild dogs and so forth, they can be a problem if you get caught in the wrong place at the wrong time. I have never had a problem. You can always climb a tree.

For the most part if you are concerned, I would carry a 357 mag revolver and it will take care of most any situation that you might encounter.
 

Topthis

New member
I hike often and run into coyotes often but they seemed more interested in getting as far from me as possilble, which suits me fine. However, up until about a year or so ago, i never thought about carrying while hiking. The increase if stories about hikers getting mugged etc., but especially the stories of wild doggies, mountain lion attacks and bear attacks and the like...now i go into the woods with my .45 IWB, loaded with 200gr fmj's. Haven't had the need to pull it yet, but it makes me feel a bit safer in case I got nowhere to run.
 
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