Why Winchester went belly up.

[Death from Afar]

Fellas, the story that follows I would normally find VERY hard to belive, but for the fact I know the buyer, the gunsmith and the dealer and they all have independently verified this story.

My mate, a decent sort of chap who is an infantry officer, on returning from Afghanistan decided a model 70 feather weight in .270 would be a good thing to have. Most of use would agree.

So , he shoved the scope on, took it to his brothers farm to zero. Bang! Bang! Bang! Man, I cant wait to see this three round, one hole group. He was slightly surprised to see all three bullets had gone through the target sideways. Slightly concerend by this, he examined all the cases and was agahst to see that the necks had all swollen and split. Hmmm, this is a concern.

So, on his way back, he took it to a very good gunsmith, who looked at the cases and went "F#%#^&!!!!", and checked the actual caliber. He went "F$@#@^@%~~~!!" a few more times, when he saw that ALTHOUGH THE BARREL WAS LABELLED .270 Win, IT WAS ACTUALLY A .280 Barrel!

The sales guy, which is an excellent Christchurch gunshop was aghast when the rifle was taken back. They immediatly called the agent, who did not belive it, but a call from the gunsmith proved it. Needless to say, my mate got his money back, and instead of the Tinchester, walked from the shop with a Sako instead.

Good thing it wasnt the other way round, huh?

 

[270Win]

Was Winchester quality control bad enough that this would happen on a mass scale?

Or is there the implication that lawsuits reduced their coffers to the point of foreclosure?

 

[Fremmer]

I looked at a new Winchester 70 aobut a year or so ago when shopping for a new hunting rifle. It was pretty sloppy, with bad checkering and a rough bolt. Too bad, because I've used older Winchesters that are outstanding guns.

 

[TPAW]

Interesting story, but I doubt Winchester closed it's doors because of similiar
occurences. If so, many more posts of similiar stories on webs like this one would have been mentioned by it's members.

 

[Death from Afar]

I guess my point is that it doesnt take too many stories like this one to allow word of mouth to spread about lousey quality control. I think.

 

[Art Eatman]

Re the barrel? Stuff happens.

Yes, there have been a few posts about quality.

Overall, though the barrel problem has little or nothing to do with any loss of sales. I say this because of the preponderance of approving posts here and at THR over the last several years, and my own eyeballing at gunstores here and there.

I'd venture that the problems were more in the realm of labor costs and fixed overhead for the overall volume of sales. In today's world, there are almost no low-quality bolt-action rifles, from most any manufacturer. Highly competitive out there...

Art

 

[HiBC]

m-70 quality

I once went in to buy an M-700 in 270.This shop made it a practice to let the customer step out back and test fire at the time of sale.At the first movement of the bolt,all the rounds came flying out the top of the rifle.The shop owner tried with various ammo and got the same results.Bad rails,wrong follower,who knows.
I bought a Super Blackhawk new and got some misfires.Careful inspection showed firing pin print between primer and rim.Bolt was not engaging to index cylinder.Ruger took good care of me
I wish I could have afforded to buy some more M-70 classics.I like my Laredo.
An FYI,the Montana Rifleman makes a pre-64 M-70 clone action for a reasonable price.

 

[hksigwalther]

Could also be disgruntled (union) employees sabotaging products in response to the then pending closure?

 

[cheygriz]

Another factor, IMHO, was the decision to NOT offer what a large portion of the public wants.

If Winchester had offered an AR-15, and AR-10 version with the Winchester name, I believe they would have been very successful with them. They did nothing to compete with Marlin, Ruger and Beretta in the 9MM/.40/.45 hi-cap semi-auto carbine market.

Why didn't they offer an ultra modern carbine to complete with the FNH PS90?????

You have a hard time surviving in today's market with ONLY older designs. Ya gotta move into the 21st century with at least some of your product line.

 

[Sarge]

The Demise of the Model 94

When you think "Winchester", what image does your mind see?

A cowboy rifle, that's what.

There has never been a lack of demand for these rifles; if anything it is greater than ever, thanks to Cowboy Action Shooting.

The potential purchaser of these rifles is a traditionalist. They aren’t buying a levergun because they’re the flattest-shooting, elk-killing-est thing around. They are buying them to keep a dream alive.

We levergunners are an odd lot. There was a time when we did want more power and flatter trajectory from our 94’s- and Winchester answered with the 7-30 Waters, and the .307 Winchester. They even gave us honest-to-gosh big game numbers with their proprietary .356 & .375 cartridges. They went the way of the .25-35, and the .348- fine cartridges in their own right. We didn’t stay interested for long, and those who wanted hotter ballistics just bought a .243, .270, .308 or an ‘06 to stand in the corner next to that old ’94. Most folks need glass sights to enjoy the advantages of a flat-shooting rifle, and the bolt-guns and a few good semi-autos made mounting them SO much easier.

No, to most us a ‘Winchester’ is a Model 94, in .30-30 caliber. In skilled hands it is in fact a 200 yard deer gun, and entirely usable on some bigger stuff at closer range. We loved it for what it was, and learned to live within its limitations.

Winchester made a series of corporate decisions that doomed the ’94. Forty-two years ago they decided to make some production changes to cut costs. Almost immediately, everybody wanted a pre-64 Winchester. They would occasionally pay more attention to fit & finish to offset the stigma, but the die was cast. In the early 90’s, they remodeled the gun for side-ejection and over-the-bore scope mounting. Oddly enough, Winchester also decided to change the bottom of the receiver to a flatter profile, about this time. Gone were the hand-friendly underside bevels that made carrying a ’94 Winchester, feel like shaking hands with an old friend. I have seen very few with scopes mounted, and my own ’94 AE will soon wear a set of aperture sights. While the day may come when I need glass sights, I’ll probably just use another adding them degrades the handiness of the Model ‘94.

The final straw was the addition of external safeties. First we had the crossbolt, then the tang safety. Our familiar old friend now had ‘special needs’, to make it go ‘bang’ when we wanted it to. Old dogs like me could be seen at public ranges, engaging in “Clank-Cuss.” The rifle would “clank” when we forgot to push the idiot-button, and we would cuss, push the damn button, and finally fire the shot. The one gun that almost tempted me to buy a crossbolt-equipped levergun, was the Big Bore in .444. I probably should have. Levergunners are an ingenious bunch, and finding ways around the crossbolts on Winchester and Marlin leverguns didn’t take them long.

The addition of plastic stocks to some models (“Black Shadow”) was a further departure from tradition. So while Winchester was still making “94’s”, they had become almost unrecognizable to those of us who wanted a real ’94.

Winchester entirely neglected the market for a ’92-based carbine, chambered for various pistol cartridges. A sizable chunk of the Cowboy Action market was ignored, and 92’s from Italy and Brazil sold like hotcakes instead.

The demise of the Model 70 was a complete mystery to me. All I ever handled and shot were superb examples of what a bolt action rifle should be.

 

[BUSTER51]

DEATH FROM AFAR, Your buddy is spoiled for life now that he has a Sako.

 

[Wildalaska]

Bottom line...high labor costs and too much overhead from the new plant. It wasnt anyhting else.

WildgoodriflesniceselectionAlaska

 

[tINY]

Why didn't they offer an ultra modern carbine to complete with the FNH PS90?????

Actually, FN was making the "Winchesters" for years. Under a liscensing agreement with Winchester cartridge company. Why would FN compete with itself?


-tINY

 

[hksigwalther]

Olin.

 

[Gewehr98]

Winchester had problems from early on.

Olin Corporation bought the marque in 1931 and turned it over to USRAC in 1981. USRAC turned it over to FN in 1989, so to say Olin was the root cause is a bit off the beam. And Olin still runs the Winchester line of ammo, as well they should since they make the powder, brass, etc.

Labor costs were the big thing. Nobody takes a chunk of steel and carves away everything that doesn't look like a gun receiver for cheap these days, not since Mausers, Springfields, and Garands. Extrude it, cast it, or outsource it. Winchester was well on the way to reducing production costs in 1964, hence the great love for pre-'64 Winnie bolt and leverguns.

 

[hksigwalther]

Sorry, I was refering to, "Under a liscensing agreement with Winchester cartridge company." It isn't "Winchester" (a brand name), it's Olin.

 

[Tim R]

I believe Winchester lost sight of what shooters/hunters wanted. I believe they put too much into their short magnums (some are worth having IMHO) and forgot we still like 270, 30-06, and 300 Win Mag rifles as well.

All I know is I really like me Winny Feather Weight in '06. It's a tack driving SOB. Kicks, but it shoots.

 

[FirstFreedom]

Bottom line...high labor costs and too much overhead from the new plant. It wasnt anyhting else.

Except for putting the Winchester name on JUNK knives, scopes, etc. That definitely plays a role. I don't care how good the guns are (and they were/are good), but when you start watering down the name with the excessive licensing like Olin did and still does, it tarnishes your image, and less people buy your flagships (in this case, guns). Now, mind you, I understand that Herstal/USRAC had no control over this, but nevertheless, it affected them. So, if the question is "what did USRAC do, or not do, that caused their demise?", the answer is nothing or not much - WA is right. But if the question is "what caused their demise?", then you've got to expand it to things beyond their control, in addition to the plant/high labor costs etc. Also, of course, competition played a role with the M70 at least (Howa, Tikka, Mossberg, Stephens, Charles Daly, etc.) - it's brutal out there when it comes to turnbolts.

 

[onemsumba]

Here’s my conspiracy theory.

FNH owns “Winchester” and Browning.

They look at Browning and they have a division that is doing pretty good. Note Browning is just a sourcing and distributing company it doesn’t manufacture anything itself. And it even contracts for products to be sold under the Winchester name.

Then they look at USRAC and see that the they have this high cost factory in the US that it is making 3 products and are outsourcing everything else. They also note that the licensing agreement with Winchester is up at the end of 2006. So from a business decision they think, hey we can shut down USRAC and get rid of the high cost manufacturing. Then we can simply renegotiate the contract with Winchester for the brand name and be in the same place without the high cost US factory and labor.

So their next step, wait a year or 2 for the dust to settle and everyone to wish they could buy a new Mod. 70 and then they announce the re-introduction of the Model 70. Only now its made in Portugal, Russia or Japan at ½ the cost. They then sell it for the same price that it was selling at in the US and they double their profit margin and have no US labor issues to deal with i.e. pension, health care etc…. They also only offer it in “classic” calibers .270, .308. 30-06 and .300 Win Mag thus simplifying the product line further and reducing the costs even more.

 

[FirstFreedom]

Bingo! In so doing, then make an end-run around the outcry which would have resulted had they simply come out and said "we're shutting down the USA factory and moving production overseas" - there would have been a massive hue and cry, and some boycotts. But now, instead, they accomplish the same result (moving production to cheaper place overseas), albeit over a longer period of time, but instead of boycotts, by positioning themselves as the "saviour" or reviver of the Winchester Guns, after we thought (egad) that they were gone forever, rather than the traitor of making the Win a foreign-made gun, they are now heroes - they have their cake and eat it too. P.R. move, pure and simple. Genius.