Why only a magnum rifle or 12-guage for bears?

.357SIG

New member
First of all, I'm not asking which gun works best with bears. There is already a thread going in the General Handguns forum. Instead, I ask you this question:
Why not just get a G3/HK91, FAL, M14/M1A, etc. w/ some 20s for defense instead of a magnum rifle? I think 20+ rounds of .308 or a C-Mag loaded w/ 100 rnds of .223 would work fine against a big ol' bear. Besides, most of us already have evil, "assault" weapons, so it saves us money and practice.

Just an idea I've been thinking about (not meant to flame anyone).

I expect to see some "beating a dead horse" posts too.;)

[Edited by .357SIG on 02-15-2001 at 11:20 PM]
 

IanS

New member
Never hunted bear. But 5.56 against a bear? I think I'll pass.:D

Besides not very sporting to use semi-auto rifles. It'll make hunters a target for anti-s and a laughing stock to boot.
 

Payette Jack

New member
Not a bad idea

But I think that quantity vs. stopping power is a bad trade-off.

You'll probably want something with a good chance of causing major damage with the first round. You may not get a second round.

FWIW - My step-dad used to be a bush pilot in Alaska after WWII. Researchers north of the Arctic Circle got ahold of Thompson's for Polar Bear defense. Not my first choice, but I guess it's one strategy.
 

Bogie

New member
I went shooting with a guide a few months back. I evidently may have taught him a trick or two. When I asked him which rifle to bring, he told me whatever I wanted. I pursued, and asked him if a .243 would be okay. He replied that if I was the one behind it, no problem.

But I think I'll take the .308... 180 gr. Nosler partitions...
 

Long Path

New member
Probably because people are concerned about real penetration and power issues. Most people want to know that that first round will STOP the bear.

That said, your point is well made that several .308's will certainly stop a bear. The question is, would you rather quickly get your single powerful shot off, or very quickly get your first moderately-powered shot off less accurately, your second moderately-powered shot off with similar accuracy even less quickly, your third moderately-powered shot of even less quickly...?

So it is that the intermediately-powered rifle repeating rifle might actually be thought to be slower, when attempting to STOP a charging bear. Kieth Rogan, a TFL member, has some interesting contributions about stopping bear attacks (he was himself attacked by a Kodiak (on K. Island) a couple of years ago), and notes that the Canadian Mounties and the Alaskan State Troopers did some testing and found that simple .38 LRN's will adequately penetrate to the brain pain of oa large bear from a frontal attack; you just have to aim low enough. Most people aim too high, putting round after round into the sinuses of the bear, generally just ticking the already mad bruin off. The brain resides just behind the muzzle. Not a very easy target, esp. if you're trying to shoot the bear off your buddy (read Keith's case). Many feel that you need a round that will stop a bear in the least-favorable conditions. (EG, quartering away from you as he runs at your buddy.)

Hey, a Mini-30 or a tanker Garand or an FAL would work all right for bear defense. Even a few rounds of .223... (though I'm calling "Impractical!" on "a C-Mag loaded w/100 rnds of .223..." Have you ever had to lug around rifle with such a contraption on the bottem? NOT handy! Feels like you're going into the jungle with a GE mini-gun, a la Predator.) You have to take into account, too, that if it's too cumbersome, you won't have ANY bear defense that works, because you'll have left it behind. Or just as bad; you'll have it, but be unable to take in some of the beautiful sights you should have seen because you were too winded from lugging around the monster contaption that was envisioned as being the perfect bear stopper.

For me, compromise is important. I recognize that the chances of a bear attack are slim. Very slim. I will avoid at almost all costs shooting one if it wasn't my game of choice. But I don't venture out into bear country without a good powerful handgun. I go where I want, and am cautious. Usually when I'm in bear country, I'm hunting elk (I'm from TX), so I've already got a fairly powerful rifle with me.

A final point. When you're out wondering around in the woods, you can meet all kinds of people. I've met some super-nice folks while in the back country. I'd hate to think that some of those nice conversations would have been cut short before they started because of their ascance looks at my "assault weaponry." Many people who would not look twice at a lever-action carbine or a bolt rifle or even a large revolver or semi-auto holstered on the hip will goggle at a semi-auto military-style rifle with a high-cap magazine in what they're undoubtedly thinking of as "their" wilderness area. Am I being too PC? Probably. But part of me also says: You're trying to stop a bear. A theoretical bear. Not a concerted attack by several bears in ambush! ;) Use what you need, leave behind what you don't. I'm coming perilously close to saying "Why do you need that?" When I find myself there, I know it's time to go take a nap; I've fallen victim to the dark side. :)

Best,
L.P.
 

.357SIG

New member
This is just an idea that stemmed from the thread in the handguns forum. I certainly would not want to carry around a battle rifle and spare mags for hiking (unless I was in South Africa or some South-American drug-producing country;)).

Another good point was brought up, which I didn't think about. It will scare the **** out of a tourist or other hiker in the area. Also, some states may actually prohibit the carrying of large-capacity rifles for hunting, hiking, etc.

Ian11,
Yes, you're right. using a .223 as a woods gun is like a LEO using a Daisy .177 caliber spring pistol as a duty weapon. I just threw that in there because it is an "evil assault rifle" caliber.:eek:

[Edited by .357SIG on 02-15-2001 at 11:21 PM]
 

Jay Baker

New member
I know an outfitter who sets his elk/deer camps, in "griz" country, in Wyoming. An H&K 91, with a politically incorrect magazine, loaded with 180 gr S.P.s, hangs in the cook tent, at all times.

This is also in an area where the USFS requires an elevated cache, and steel bear resistant boxes for food. The cook, wranglers, etc., don't take any more chances than they have to. I don't blame them for having that H&K 91 hanging there in the cook tent.

J.B.
 

Dead

New member
One round of 223 will stop a bear with one shot if placed correctly... Even a 218bee can kill a Cafe Buffalo, with one shot :) Just depends on where you hit them.
 

JerryM

New member
The major problem is that one can't always get the ideal shot under ideal circumstances. You will be nervous and may not get the ideal position. In addition you may find yourself in a position where you will have to take a quick shot due to a charge or a suprise attack by the bear. You won't be able to pick your shot and won't be as "cool as a cucumber." You, therefore, need a cartridge with the best stopping power you can manage. I'm primarily talking about the big bears. I was stationed in Alaska from 1960-1964. I was always surprised that GIs who now had a chance to hunt the Kodiak or Polar bears, something they would never be able to afford, tried to get by with rifles that were marginal. As a result I know of several bears that were wounded and lost. I would use at least a .338 cal rifle for the big bears. If you can't afford such a rifle you can't afford the hunt. Jerry
 

M1911

New member
If you're in bear country, you're hiking. Which means that you're carrying more weight than you'd really like to. And semi-auto rifles are much heavier than bolt action rifles.

I'll take either a bolt action rifle or pump shotgun, plus a .44 mag on my hip, plus bear spray. I have an M1A and an M1 Garand. I have no desire to hump either of them over hill and dale.

M1911
 

Cannon Cocker

New member
Depends on what kind of bear you're after. For black bear .308 is a great round so any of the battle rifles you mentioned would work great. Still would shy away from .223 though, but then again I think it's too light for most deer hunting (flame suit on).

Grizzly or brown bear? I'd want the biggest hunk o'lead that I had access to. To paraphrase Frank Barnes, it is better to be caught slightly over gunned than to be trampled to death or mauled. There is no advantage in using the smallest caliber you can get away with when it comes to dangerous game. On the other hand if your .577 Tyrannosaur makes you flinch every time you pull the trigger all that power won't help you when you miss.

Poachers in parts of Africa use AK-47's to kill elephants. Now I don't think that anyone will tell you that the 7.62x37 is a good elephant round, they manage to kill them by shooting them many, many times with full auto guns and hi cap mags. While this does kill the animal it's in no way humane. So shooting a griz with all 30 rounds in a AR-15 mag will kill it, it's less than a good idea.
 

.357SIG

New member
Um, I'm talking about a battle rifle for defense against a bear, not hunting. Sorry for not clearing that up early on.
 

Shooter 2.5

New member
In defense against a bear, I think it would be a case where the distances would be fairly short so I think what is needed is a powerful first shot. You could unload a 20 mag at a bear and stop it and you could also get his attention with one of the larger calibers. Probably the reason no one thinks about the assault weapons is that it takes too much explaining and there's the old wives tales of the jams. My bear medicine was going to be a 45-70 lever action. The real reason was it gave me a chance to buy another rifle.
 

IanS

New member
Oh! You mean hosing down an animal on full auto!


How about an electric mini gun firing more than 3,000 rounds per minute on an animal looking for its afternoon meal. You're a sick puppy.:D

Its Miller Time!
 

George Hill

Staff Alumnus
Because Bears have teeth and claws, and AR-15s can jam!
I have seen bears up close and personal armed with only a .45... Felt like a water pistol. I'm no bear expert - and dont want to be... but still... I dont think I would want to piss it off by stinging it with a .22!
Teeth and Claws...
Go to the Zoo and stand real close to the bear cage... watch it eat. Then think about it real good while fingering a .223 round in your pocket. Do that and then come back and report your new insight. If your really looking at that bear - that .223 will begin to feel smaller and smaller in your hand.
 

Q-Man

New member
We can settle this once and for all.

We could just go to the zoo with an AR-15, M1A, .338, GE Minigun, an .50 BMG..... Oh wait.... That would be bad. :)
 

Hal

New member
357SIG,
Since I admit to being an "armchair commando", take this FWIW.
In the vast majority of related maulings I've read about, it was what someone else was carrying that was more important than what the "maulee" had. Most of the attacks were so sudden and ferocious, the victim had no time to react. Keith's story is pretty typical. It was his companion that distracted the bear. Personally, I don't enjoy the thought that someone would open up on the bear while I was in the same line of fire. Surviving the mauling, only to bleed out from multiple gunshot wounds kinda sucks as a plan, but that's just my viewpoint. My viewpoint on this is that if I were to venture into bear country, I would look real close at what both my companion and myself were carrying. If you decide to go it alone into the backcountry, you're odds of surviving drop waaaay down.
 

Spectre

Staff Alumnus
As someone else mentioned, battle rifles tend to be cumbersome and heavy. If I were moving, I would take a Ruger #1 in .45-70 or .458 over an HK 91 anyday. I have briefly humped an HK through the deer woods, and quickly arrived at the conclusion I would be better served with a sharp stick. Even a minigun would not be helpful if you could not address the threat in time.

Everything said about power also applies.

Now that I've said all that, I do recall seeing a conversion for M1's, that moved them to a larger caliber, while reducing weight a bit. This would be the closest I might come to using a battle rifle for bear defense.
 

Dr.Rob

Staff Alumnus
The US Coast Guard in alaska uses 12 guage shotguns 'loaded for bear" with 1 oz slugs. Dangerous game is dangerous game. "Defensive use" often means emptying a shotgun through the side of a tent that is being ripped apart or getting to a handgun after you have been knocked down. A 223 is a great flatshooting "varmint round" designed to "inflict wounds' not to kill heavy game. Dangerous game should be dealt with with an equally dangerous weapon. Use enough gun.

Kieth is definitely our resident expert in this field, but truthfully in the lower 48 i'd be comfy with an elk rifle and a 44 magnum. In alaska I wouldn't go ANYWHERE in the bush with out a shotgun full of slugs and a 44 full of the meanest hardest hitting bullets known to man.
 
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