Why no Solenoid guns???

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Skans

Active member
It seems to me that it would be very easy to replace the hammer and trigger mechanism in a pistol with an electronic firing mechanism. A Solenoid could act as the hammer, and the trigger would be a mere switch between two electrical contacts. I believe that battery technology is there to make this work. It would probably require some kind of small laptop type battery.

What's the advantage? Extreme rappid fire - near full-auto rates, but still with one round fired per trigger pull. Has anyone attempted such a thing in a pistol (I believe there are some electronically fired bolt action rifles). What do you gear-heads think? Possible? I don't see how BATFE can't approve it under their existing rules.
 
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svaz

New member
I've seen that on bigger guns (prototype machine guns), however for self-defense? I imagine seeing the "low battery" LED start flashing late at night when one finds oneself in the wrong place at the wrong time is just not conducive to bringing one's stress levels down.
 
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Christchild

New member
I'm gonna have to say I 2nd Svaz. There's just too many things can/do go wrong with the "latest" "technology" for me to take away the mechanical reliability of the existing triggers...
 
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Tucker 1371

New member
Because they've already proven themselves finicky on paintball guns. I used to play for an amateur team in the CFOA league and had a PM5, a gun with a solenoid. In terms of paintball guns it was Uber reliable, in terms of real guns it would be like going into battle with an M16 that had never been cleaned and had a handful of sand in the bolt.

I took two shots @ 300fps from 4ft away to an area I will not mention because I was in cover trying to fix my gun while my teammates got picked off. Intense pain doesn't even begin to describe the feeling. I don't care if they ever become widespread and everyone says they're the bees knees, I will NEVER have my life depending on a solenoid fired weapon.
 
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madmag

New member
Extreme rappid fire - near full-auto rates
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Don't forget. Other things limited the fire rate than just firing pin speed. A locked breech pistol will just operate so fast due to all the mechanism.

Actually you don't even need a striker. I remember seeing a prototype electric ignition gun. You just ignite the primer by electric spark. Not sure of the outcome, but I think batteries are still an issue.
 
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Pahoo

New member
Why no Solenoid guns???
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That would be old technology as a solenoid would be obsolete. It's like trying to invent a new 2x4 for an old house. In a past life, I worked with solenoids and they have their limitations. If you used a solenoid, it would be part of a trip mechanism and not the main force. You would also need one heck of a power supply to drive the size of slolenoid that would work. Now look at the CVA Electra. No solenoid or mchanical strike but you still have an ignition and that is what you might need. Not my cup of tea ... :mad:


Be Safe !!!
 
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TriumphGuy

New member
Being a guy who works on electronics all day long, I can say that I wouldn't want to trust my life to such a thing. I don't even like the idea of the new "drive by wire" cars.
 
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ClayInTx

New member
I agree with TriumphGuy on dependability of electronics. I’ve worked with Industrial Controls all my career. We always put in a mechanical over-ride for a last ditch safety because we learned that even the most sophisticated electronic system can fail.

I’m not real fond of my car’s system because it is so much “drive by wire” as TG put it. I don’t even start the blasted thing, it starts itself. The gear selector has built-in resistance to make me think I’m mechanically shifting it but I know better. It also has opinions and doesn’t hesitate to inform me of such: “Headlamps Recommended” if I over-ride the control, “Backing up too fast” if I get on a bit much. Alright, already! Shut up! Which one of us is driving?

I have an old pickup which is my Apocalypse Now vehicle and no one gets it.

Anyway, about the solenoid and/or electrical firing. It has been done and done successfully. When I was in the Air Force I witnessed a demonstration of the very first modern Gatling Gun. It fired so fast that a mechanical firing pin wasn’t feasible, 100 rounds per second, 6,000 rounds per minute. The limiting factor was the ammo belt, the links would stretch by being pulled out of the magazine so fast. I don’t know the rate of current models because I never got to use the adopted model and was stuck with two reciprocating 20mm cannons.

The ammunition had a primer that was fired by electricity. it wasn’t electronic, it just made a connection when the round came into position and the current was turned on continuously.

This means there is no need for electronics to fire a gun but it does require a special primer. However, if an electronic circuit with alternating current was used and the frequency was extremely high it might fire a current primer because of the way ultra high frequency current behaves. One problem would be the case might get spot welded into the chamber. That phenomenon is beyond the scope of this thread and I won’t try to explain it here.

I wouldn’t depend on it for SD but it might have application in target competition. Can you imagine someone showing up with his electronic gun with neon lights down the side?
 
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Casimer

New member
There are Morini and Hammerli match pistols w/ 'electronic triggers' that use solenoids, though the hammer isn't driven by a solenoid. The solenoid trips the hammer.
 
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Uncle Buck

New member
The solenoid would replace what? Right now, the back pressure from the ammunition fired re-cocks the hammer, allows the slide to move rearward, spring brings it back to the firing position.
On revolvers, the solenoid would replace?

I do not see what the improvement would be. Currently we have a proven technology which is mechanical and or gas operated. When you start wiring the guns, you need more than a screw driver and a hammer to fix them. :eek:
 
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Edward429451

Moderator
It would be essentially full auto and illegal. The solenoid switch would become the "trigger" and cause more than one round to fire with a single function of the "trigger".

Bad idea for other reasons already stated anyway.
 
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drail

Moderator
I guess you've never had a car fail to start because of a bad solenoid. Most people that use guns need them to work every time.
 
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danez71

New member
A lot of people dont embrace technology.

Typically, electronic component failures are measured in parts per million. About 3 failures per million is a common acceptable failure rate.

You could/would have 1 battery, 2 wires, 1 switch, and one solenoid. Shouldnt even count the wires because they are mechanical and not elect but count them any ways.

In the most simple form..... thats about 15 failures per million for the assembly.

I'd be willing to bet that every mfg has more than 15 failures per million of any given part they use.

We have drive by wire cars today because they proved to the NHTSA that todays electronics are more reliable than mechanical linkages.

This is partly due to the fact electronics dont require nearly the same level of maintenance as mechanical linkages; if any.

Having said that, unless there is a substantial benefit, I dont want it. Currently, I think it would very difficult to offer the comsumer a substantial benefit using the the solenoid. "Substantial" being a key word.
 
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HiBC

New member
There is an old acronym,K.I.S.S..no offense.

There are many ways to accomplish something,ande one can go to great lengths to complicate a mechanism.

The old flintlock,the rolling block,a hammer.sear and spring,the striker and trigger and cocking piece of of a mauser type action..

Some pretty elegant,functional simplicity.

Given the reciprocating mass of a solenoid setup,we might include an open bolt fixed firing pin for some more elegant simplicity.

Here is my stone cold clincher.

Any number of times,I have put a flashlight in a door pocket or glovebox ,and darn near every time I needed them to work on a dismal cold night they were disapointing.

For the task at hand,energy stored in a spring works better than energy stored in a battery
 
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Skans

Active member
I guess the real question is "how can technology make a handgun much easier to rappid fire?" I should have started with that premise, rather than jump to the solenoid idea.

I know that with a tremendous amount of training, some people can learn to rapid fire even a revolver. But, what about for the average gun owner? I'd like to own a gun with the capacity of 20 rounds that can fire near a full-auto rate of fire, because of a trigger that will let me do this. If I can type at a rate of 60 words/minute (300 characters/minute or 5 taps per second), I'm sure that I could fire a weapon that fast with one round per tap of the trigger - if such a gun could be manufactured.

Why would I want such a thing? Primarily for fun, or just because I want one - not necessarily for self defense. But, I wouldn't automatically rule out self defense if I thought that it could be used for that.

Out of all of the guns that I own, only about 5 of them are practical for self defense. I have many guns that are impractical from a self-defense perspective. But I like them, and I like shooting them. I'm sure many of you are similar to me.

With regard to one-round-per-trigger-pull, I'm sure that there is an electronic way to make sure that the trigger must be released before another round can be fired, so it could be made legal by current BATFE regulations. Now, would BATFE like a gun that anyone can fire 20 rounds at a near-full auto rate? Probably not. So, what - they don't have to like it, so long as it's legal.
 
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