Why no modern 7.62x25 Tok?

[Tucker 1371]

I'd love it if someone made a modern gun for the 7.62 x 25 (Tokarov or CZ-52). I was able to pick up some surplus stuff for cheap! Problem is no one loads defense ammo and a lot of the Russian military stuff uses corrosive components. Its a pretty long cartridge though so you better have fairly large hands!

The above quote in another thread got me wondering why nobody has made a modern pistol chambered for the 7.62x25. I personally think the cartridge would be much more popular if the only option for shooting it wasn't butt ugly and cheap looking with the ergonomics of a railroad tie.

Would it be possible to make a conversion barrel for a Glock 20 (10mm Auto) and a magazine that would fit in the frame? I think the 10mm and the Tok are pretty close in COAL.

What say you TFL?

 

[Model12Win]

I'm not sure that there is as much demand for it nowadays since all the surplus has dried up for that caliber.

And there is nothing wrong with comrade Tokarev's pistol.

 

[James K]

With most gun makers working full time to meet the current demand, why would anyone take on the additional burden of producing a new gun, with an entirely new frame size, for an obsolete cartridge that has a following only because it is currently cheap. In spite of greatly exaggerated claims about its super power, the 7.62x25 is a dead end that will probably be gone once the current stocks of surplus ammo are used up, or be in the "run off some every ten years" category, like .32 Rimfire.

Jim

 

[Model12Win]

for an obsolete cartridge that has a following only because it is currently cheap.

You obviously haven't seen 7.62x25mm prices lately.

It is NOT cheap. It is now more expensive than .45 ACP, 9mm, 9x18mm, .380, .32, .40 ACP, hell it's right up there with factory 10mm.

Like I said, all the surplus has long dried up for the caliber. It's not cheap to shoot.

 

[Cheapshooter]

While looking at one of my Tokarev pistols I have thought what a great CCW it would make with the slide (and barrel) shortened, the grip shortened, and a decent safety redesign. Might only be 6+1 capacity, and lose a little of it's exceptional velocity with a short barrel, but I still think it could be a good stopper with the proper bullet design.
But with so many others already being available, there is no real market for it.
Guess I'll just keep enjoying the massive fireballs at the range until the last K of my surplus stock is used up.

 

[Tucker 1371]

Would it be possible to fit it into a Glock 20 frame?

 

[smee78]

I like this round and always thought it would be good to have in a Ruger Blackhawk/Redhawk with about 7 or 8 rounds. But I guess I will just have to keep shooting it in my CZ-52's. I do agree that I would like to shoot this round in a more modern pistol, even thought about getting one of the AR uppers?

 

[amd6547]

I like the Tokarev pistol and it's round, and find it quite useful. I would like to see what Speer or Hornady could with it.

 

[ttarp]

.357 SIG is the same concept, speedy bottlenecked available in several different makes and models and conversion barrels too.

 

[JohnKSa]

Would it be possible to fit it into a Glock 20 frame?

Apparently there is some reloading data for 7.62x25 rounds that will fit in a Glock 20 magazine, but the ammo I've tried in that caliber is too long for the magazine.

As autopistol rounds go, it's pretty long.

 

[Model12Win]

Prvi Partisan (read PPU) makes an excellent hollow point load in the caliber that is a real manstopper. The 7.62x25mm is an extremely effective battle cartridge.

 

[Tucker 1371]

JohnKSa,

How does setting the bullet that deep in the case affect velocity? Or do they use a lighter shorter bullet?

And if someone tried to make a load that would fit in a G20 magazine I wonder if they also fab'd a 7.62 Tok bbl (and maybe a slide too) for it.

 

[kozak6]

nobody has made a modern pistol chambered for the 7.62x25

That's not quite true. Russia and China have all made all kinds of modern pistols in this caliber, and Vietnam made a less modern pistol, but none of them can be imported for various reasons. Nor can ammo made in those countries.

The real problem is the ammo. Much like most other Soviet calibers, it never caught on nor entered production here.

The ammo supply and price are major roadblocks. New production ammo tends to be as expensive as .45 ACP, if you can find it. The surplus supply is spotty, if you can find it. While surplus is generally affordable (if you can find it), the days of $.10/round Tokarev ammo are more than a decade behind us. This is a cartridge that you will have to order online.

All of the surplus is corrosive. That means that lazy or knowledgeable shooters will cause all kinds of grief for the manufacturer.

All of the ammo is foreign. It would be very frustrating if future political action restricted importation of ammo.

The cartridge is just too long. It's longer than a 10mm. The manufacturer would need to tool up for just about a whole new pistol rather than massaging it to fit into an existing gun. To fit it into existing frames and magazines, you have to accept severely reduced capacity (J&G's 1911 conversions), or handload catrtridges with the bullets set back to reduce length (and risk high pressure).

It's a great cartridge, but it's too impractical. .357 Sig with lighter bullets isn't that far off, but offers more if you want it, and in modern pistols. Police trades also tend to be pretty cheap. In revolvers, .327 mag is extremely close.

 

[gyvel]

While looking at one of my Tokarev pistols I have thought what a great CCW it would make with the slide (and barrel) shortened, the grip shortened, and a decent safety redesign.

LOL!! You have just described, almost word for word, the description of the CZ 88, a Tokarev based pistol made in Serbia. The only deviation from your description is the grip, which basically remains the same length as the original Tok, and the calibre, which is 9mm. It's what I always call the "Tokarev Commander."

 

[gyvel]

Back in the 80s, briefly, I would see some vendors at guns shows with tables full of Arisaka carbines that were rebarrelled/rechambered to 7.62x39, and 1911s that were reworked to 7.62x25.

Some say they were done in China, and others say in jungle workshops in Vietnam. Whichever, the condition was generally abominable, which would tend to support the VC version of the story.

The .45s were reworked by making the front and back walls of the mag well paper thin, fabricating a suitable magazine and a new barrel. I never got one, so I have never had the chance to shoot one.

I would think that one existing pistol that might have a chance at a conversion would be one of the Spanish Star 9mm Largos currently on the market. I think the Largo is a bit shorter than the 7.62x25, but not as short as a .45, so less modifications would need to be done. Also, the base diameter, hence the breechface, would be correct for the cartridge.

OAL of the two as follows:

9mm Largo: 33.53mm (1.320")

7.62x25: 34.00mm (1.340")

 

[JohnKSa]

How does setting the bullet that deep in the case affect velocity? Or do they use a lighter shorter bullet?

I really haven't looked into it past noticing that it does seem possible to load ammo that would fit in a Glock 20 mag.

Reducing case capacity, by setting the bullet more deeply means that the powder charge must be reduced to stay under the pressure limits and that generally means less velocity. That said, velocity isn't something that the 7.62x25 is likely to run short of, even with bullets set more deeply.

 

[JERRYS.]

see post #3.

 

[A pause for the COZ]

I actually love the round allot. Very fast, strait shooting, accurate. To me its like a semi auto version of the 327 magnum. Ballistics are very similar.

Its not my main carry option, but I try to work it into the mix every now and then. Not enough to make me want to order a holster for this gun. but it fits just fine in my Aliengear 1911 holster and its thin size makes it surprisingly comfortable to carry.

Hornady sell some XTP bullets so reloading carry ammo is not a problem.
And they are little butt kickers too.

Cast bullets make for cheap shooting. but brass chasing is noooo fun.

 

[carguychris]

FWIW out of shorter barrels, the ballistics of 7.65x21 Parabellum / .30 Luger approach those of 7.62x25, but the former cartridge will fit in almost any 9mm pistol with only a barrel swap, and will often function perfectly without even changing the recoil spring.

However, not only is interest in modern SD/HD loadings of .30 Luger nearly nonexistent, but its production rate is analogous to .32 Rimfire as James K wrote about in Post #3.

I too predict that 7.62x25 will fade into obscurity once the surplus ammo dries up.

 

[Jim Watson]

There is a ChiCom knockoff of the Sig Sauer P226 with action and mag well lengthened for 7.62, the Dominion Arms P762. Not available in USA. Won't shoot SMG primer surplus.
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/foru...98-New-Product-Dominion-Arms-P762-in-7-62x25?

There was a brief surge of enthusiasm for home grown conversions of 1911s with barrels available from Numrich and J&G to capitalize on popularity of some DIYs with relined barrels.
You could get 4-5 rounds in a .38 Super magazine, up to 8 with some tweaks.
One of the early DIYers worked with deep seating surplus bullets and recrimping with a Lee Factory (collet) Crimp Die. It functioned fully loaded but there were definite "pressure signs" like pierced or dropped primers.
An extra stout mainspring was required to fire those SMG primers in surplus.

Handloading avoided all objections, JHPs at 1911 OAL with US pistol primers and heavy but not excessive loads looked pretty mean. But that calls for extra work and expense, so the game kind of died out.