Why go with a 1911 single-stack?

V

viper

New member
As we all know, the F.B.I. has chosen the single-stack .45 for their S.W.A.T. teams. Here's my question. If all the major calibers are pretty close in stopping power in the top loads, why give up all those extra rounds you would get in a hi-cap gun? First, you have the Glocks in the big three--9mm,.40,.45--all with hi-cap mags. The Glock 21 specifically is in the same caliber as the 1911 and carries 5 more rounds on hand.

If you need a single action auto, why not go with custom Browning Hi-Powers(which I am currently carrying) with top notch high velocity ammunition--which is supposed to be right up there with the .45 in terms of stopping power? With the hi-power, you get 14 in the gun with a standard mag. 20 round mags are also available, and they are reliable. It just seems you give up an awful lot, in terms of capacity/firepower in going with a single-stack 1911.

I'm not saying that 8 to 9 rounds of .45 is anything to sneeze at, but what if you are going up against multiple attackers? Or, by some quirk of misfortune, what if you end up in a protracted gunfight? Wouldn't one want as many rounds as possible at one's immediate disposal in that situation? I realize you can carry spare 10 round mags as back-up, but it still does not equal the 15 rounds you get in a Glock 22 magazine that you can carry as a spare for your Glock 23, which itself carries a standard load of 14 rounds if you carry it with the chamber loaded. Supposedly, the .40 Liberty is comparable to the .45 in pretty much all its loadings.

I actually find it curious that the F.B.I. issues the Glock .40's to its regular agents, giving them 5 to 7 more rounds of a comparable cartridge than a singal-stack 1911 carries(not to mention how many more rounds they can carry if you count the spare magazines), while their S.W.A.T. guys get the 1911's and only 8 to 9 rnds.

I know the 1911 platform is supposed to be the best for precision shooting, but man!...what a loss of firepower in trade. What if you get into a gunfight with a gang or group of bad guys that have lots of firepower on them, and all you have is your handgun? I would want as much ammo as possible.

Could someone please explain to me why only 8 to 9 rnds of .45 in a 1911 is the better way to go?

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Let's just hope we don't get Gore'd in November.
I don't know about everyone else, but I'd much
rather get some Bush.
 
P

parabellum

New member
Have you ever seen a really well trained handgunner execute a magazine change? If they have spare mags on their person, and you can rest assured they will, they are not handicapped at all by 7 or 8 in the pistol. Apparently they're comfortable with the single stack. Remember, it's not so much the tools, it's the man.
 
D

Damon

New member
For SWAT teams, the handgun is, in many cases, the secondary firearm. The long gun, MP-5 or CAR-15, will normally be used for most actions. Also SWAT team members do not fight alone. Usually, you will have a second or third armed team member watching their back. Normally, more bullets in the magazine are better. LAPD SWAT and US Army Delta have had good luck with single-stack .45 autos.

Cheers,
Damon
 
D

Danny45

New member
Viper, for one, I don't believe the 9mm is really as good for stopping a BG as the bigger calibers. If they were, there wouldn't be the mass exodus to the .40 and .45's that you read about. That's the trend, at least around here.

Another reason for a single stack, it really does make a difference in how the guns fit your hands. I know I'll get flamed for this, but the HK USP, Glock, S&W's, etc that I had didn't fit my hands well because of the extra space needed for the hi-cap mags. The only exception was, the EAA Witness I had. It was a 10 rounder. But even it doesn't feel as good or is as controllable as the 1911 I now have. I may just have small hands but I don't think so.

What it all boils down to, hit what you aim at, and you shouldn't need more. :D

Just my opinion.


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"Charlton Heston is my President"

Danny45
NRA, NAHC, Buckmasters
 
E

Eric of IN

New member
Remember, the FBI Hostage Rescue Team is using the 1911 as a sidearm, not as their primary weapon. The odds of them getting into the type of scenario you describe are pretty low.
Eric
 
V

viper

New member
So, are you guys saying you would not want a 1911 .45 as your primary because of the capacity disadvantage I mentioned? For instance, imagine you are on your own in a bad part of L.A. or Miami. Am I right that you would want a higher capacity pistol?

By the way, I know its weight is another factor.

------------------
Let's just hope we don't get Gore'd in November.
I don't know about everyone else, but I'd much
rather get some Bush.
 
D

Danny45

New member
No, My new Kimber 45 is fine. I can have 7+1 like I had with my Sig P220, or use the 8 round magazine I have. I keep one other mag with me when I carry and will purchase a few more on my NEXT payday. It will be more than enough as I don't plan on getting into a shootout. Remember, the best plan of action is to avoid a confrontation if at all possible. But if I fall into one, I feel that I'll be well armed to survive. It's also a mental thing.


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"Charlton Heston is my President"

Danny45
NRA, NAHC, Buckmasters
 
A

ArmySon

Staff Alumnus
Either of my carry guns will more then suffice. My Wilson Combat CQB is an 8+1 1911 and my Wilson Combat KZ-45 is a 10+1 1911. Why do I choose a 1911 for a carrying gun?

1. I know I'm going to hit my target because I'm most comfortable shooting this style firearm. The grip fits my hand really nicely compared to a Glock, HK, hi cap Para.

2. I can perform a mag change fairly quickly.

3. I have a .357 snubby in my pocket.

I don't have any faith in the 9mm in terms of stopping power.
 
L

longeyes

New member
To my mind the only justification for a single-stack .45 auto is ultra-low carry weight, e.g. Glock 36.

The points about its being a secondary firearm are, of course, well-taken.
 
C

Correia

New member
In the history of gun fighting how many rounds are usually fired out a single handgun anyway. I'm currently armed in public as a CCW holder, in a violent encounter my first plan is too retreat if possible, or avoid the conflict all together.

I carry a 1911 8+1, and a spare 10. If I get into a fight with a large gang of armed and dedicated scumbags, odds are that I'll get perforated long before I run out of bullets just because there are lots of them, only one of me, and I can't seem to jump around like the action heros in the movies. :)

Also to reiterate what some of the previous posters said, I carry a 1911 because it fits me and I shoot it better than anything else.
 
W

Wayne D

New member
As much as I want to defend the 1911 (I have four and I love them), I would be a hypocrite if I did. The two times in my life that I carried because I had been threatened and the threats seemed serious, I carried hi-cap 9mm's. The first time it was a Glock 17 with +P+ police loads. The second time it was a Beretta 92 with Cor-Bons. There's something comforting about the extra rounds.

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Wayne D
NRA Life Member
 
B

branrot

New member
I've always been a fan of hi-capacity handguns. However, when I saw the video of the "North Hollywood Shootout" on Discovery or the History Channel, I got even more gung-ho. All things being equal, I'd rather have more rounds in a gun. I have guns with 12, 13, 15 and 16 round clips (as well as guns with 5, 6 and 10 rounds).

I agree that there are reasons not to have hi-caps (ie, the guns don't fit you right or are too big). I also agree that sometimes you have to balance the size of your round with the amount of rounds. All things being equal, I'd rather have the extra rounds.
 
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Matt VDW

New member
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I've always been a fan of hi-capacity handguns. However, when I saw the video of the "North Hollywood Shootout" on Discovery or the History Channel, I got even more gung-ho. [/quote]

Wasn't the barrage of fire from the LAPD's 9mm Berettas largely ineffective against the armored bad guys? In a scenario like that (hundreds of cops versus a couple of well armed and armored bad guys), I'd gladly trade a hi-cap 9mm pistol for a .38 Special wheelgun and a Winchester 94.
 
B

buzz_knox

New member
I'm going from a Glock 26 to a 1911 pattern (with a Glock 17 thrown in for occasional carry) for the following reasons:

1. I've got a higher hit probability with a single action or Glock trigger;

2. it's got a safety (nice for weapons retention);

3. the single stack mags are easier to carry concealed so I'm more likely to do it (although a spare glock mag in the pocket usually accompanies my 26);

4. a 1911 is extremely easy to use effectiviely with effective ammo;

5. I've gotten to the point in my life where I have both my own ideas about what a defensive firearm should be and the resources to make it happen. A custom 1911 will do that but a Glock, Sig, etc. won't. And while I love Hi-Powers, they don't love me.

6. finally, during a "Screamer" drill (where take a firing stance and fire on command while squeezing the grip until your knuckles turn white and you want to shoot the instructor), I got the shakes with my 17. I tried it with the 1911 and was able to do it without a problem. The thinner grip made that much of a difference.

Oh, the Springfield 1911 is being issued as the PRIMARY sidearm for special agents. It will become the secondary only when they are acting as HRT. In the performance of regular duties (i.e. investigations, etc) the 1911 will be it. And pistols are still used as primary weapons for a lot of entry teams (where even an SMG can be a problem).
 
J

JohnO

New member
I think your all right. The 1911 fits your hand great. It is easy to shoot well. A .45 puts big holes in BG's. High caps have lots of fire power. The +P+ 115 gr JHP 9mm has had excellent performance on the streets. 9mm is easy to control. Bla Bla Bla
The point is, choose the gun/cal you have the most faith in and are most proficient with. That is the gun which will suit YOU best as a defense firearm. In addition, depending on your situation, choose the right tool for the job. I'd prefer a rifle or shotgun if the opportunity would present itself.
For concealed carry, I've carried as little as 6+1 and as many as 17 + 1. I've carried .45, .40S&W and 9mm. Yet, I never felt under gunned as the weapon of choice was one that I knew I'd hit my target with and loaded with what I felt was the right ammo for the caliber. And, yes....I had extra mags, too.
JMO
 
R

Ron Ankeny

New member
I like my 1911 style pistols a lot, but anyone who claims the decreased capacity can be made up for by being adept at magazine changes is nuts. If there wasn't a tactical advantage to higher capacity magazines we wouldn't have Limited 10 would we?

At seven yards I can put 10 rounds into a USPSA target from the ready faster than most shooters (in any class) can change a magazine and get back on target.

Still, I carry a Springfield Ultra-Compact and I like it better than my G-27 even though it holds fewer rounds.
 
W

Wallew

Moderator
The FBI learned their lesson the hard way in Florida shootout. Their 9's just couldn't do it. That's why they went away from 9's to either 40 or 45. I do agree, 10 (or 12,13,15,16)rounds are going to be better than 7 or 8. However, if you are truly worried about firepower (number of rounds you can send downrange) carry more magazines. That generally solves that problem with a tactical reload. AND the last time I checked, 7 round mags for 1911 are generally MUCH cheaper than the pre-ban high caps, some of which go for more than $75 each. Besides, hopefully the FBI HRT teams get a little more practice with their 1911's than the normal FBI agents get with their Glocks. So they are more proficient than the normal agent will be. So the normal agent will NEED more rounds than the HRT agent would.
 
J

JohnO

New member
I don't agree with using the Miami FBI shootout as a model for the 9mm. The silvertip performed exactly as designed. If they wanted better performance the FBI could have chosen a better 9mm round, and I don't mean the 147gr JHP's that most law enforcement moved over to for better penetration.

I don't claim to be a ballistics expert, however, I ever read of any agency having performance problems with +P+ 115gr JHP 9mm ammo in actual gun fights. This round at 1275-1350 fps seems to perform very good, with the right bullet.

With this said, I personally perfer a 1911 single stack .45 ACP, however.
 
W

WalterGAII

Moderator
Wallew: More-than-10-rd.-mags for l.e. use don't cost any more than civilian 10-rd. mags. Usual price for a l.e. Glock mag is around $15.

There's another possibility regarding the F.B.I.'s choice of a 1911 for their SWAT team members. Could it be that, with virtually unlimited taxpayer funds, there is somebody in a decision-making position who likes custom 1911's?? They don't necessarily have the best handgun for their purpose, they just have a pretty, nicely-fitted 1911 that cost a hell of a lot more than other manufacturers' pistols that will hold more ammo.
 
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