Why did S&W drop the SW99?

Housezealot

New member
I have a SW99 compact and have also put a lot of rounds through my buddies full size. Does any body know why smith and wesson dumped it?
I know you can still get the walther p99. It seems so much superior to the M&P's
my only complaint about the gun is the mag release, to close to the trigger for my taste.
 

fastbolt

New member
S&W has two polymer pistol lines. Think of it as a budget line and a premium line. S&W owns the rights to both.

The SW99/990L line was a licensed collaboration between S&W and Walther. S&W only made the slides and barrels for the SW99/990L models and had to buy everything else from Walther (magazines are Mec-Gar). You can imagine how that might lessen the potential for a return on their investment.

S&W also has total control over the development of the M&P. ;)

The 99 series is a fine pistol line and I also feel the SW99 models were excellent values for the money.

I also own a SW99 compact (9mm) and a standard model (.40 S&W). I've helped support over 50 SW99's (one of which was my issued SW99) and the occasional P99.

Having been trained as an armorer for both the SW99/P99 and M&P series I find advantages in both, but I feel the M&P arguably offers some further refinements.

The sear housing block of the 99 series is expensive and somewhat overly complex. Also, the ejector is molded into the sear housing block of the 99 series and isn't exactly as robust as that used in the M&P series. Replacement of the ejector requires replacement of the entire sear housing block in the 99 series.

The extractor design used in the 99 series is not a fitted part and is held in the slide by a spring loaded plunger. That's convenient and makes for easy removal and replacement. It's also caliber dependent. The M&P extractor is the same across the model line and is much more robust, although it's technically a fitted part (meaning it may require fitting in some slides). Removal of the M&P extractor is not as simple of a procedure as with the 99 series.

The grip inserts of the 99 series just change the dimensions of the back strap and lack the ability to change the palm swell dimensions. Also, the frame incorporates more of a grip tang to protect the web of the hand in the M&P.

The slide stop lever spring on the SW99/990L series has a hooked end which is somewhat exposed inside the magazine well of the grip and which can be caught and bent if an owner is inattentive during cleaning. I know of at least one large agency which apparently couldn't get its people to stop snagging and bending the springs, so they finally sent them the shorter spring used in the P99 models which has is looped and closed at the rear (and also a bit weaker in tension).

The M&P series uses a stainless steel guide rod assembly.

Although Walther has revised the 99 frame and apparently increased the thickness at least at one point (which I only noticed because of a change in sear housing block dimensions), the M&P also has a steel sub-chassis reinforcing their frame, which also holds the coil pins securing the sear housing assembly and the locking block.

The 99 series frame rails are incorporated in frame insert fixtures molded into the frame ... except for the compact model which has the rails incorporated in the locking block. If a rear frame rail in a compact model or any frame rails in the full-size models were to break off the whole frame would have to be replaced.

The M&P series frame rails are incorporated in the sear housing block and locking block, and in the event of a broken frame rail the rails could be replaced by an armorer by just replacing the sear housing block or the locking block (without having to replace the frame). On further note, the frame rails used in the M&P series are referred to as rocker rails, and their design allows for self-centering as any wear may occur over the service life of the pistol, and which we were told is an aid in accuracy.

The rear sight bases are much more stable in the slide's dovetail and don't require the spring loaded plunger to hold them in the dovetail. The front sight post is also mounted in a dovetail and can be drifted by an armorer, if necessary, to aid in adjustment.

The slide serrations are less slippery with wet or sweaty hands on the M&P slide.

The take down catch on the 99 series is larger than the slide lock lever used on the Glock, but I never really cared for how it felt, myself. The spring loaded take down catch pin has to be carefully seated at both ends. I do like the barrel lock used on the 99 series, and I think the lock spring being a coil spring is also an improvement over the flat leaf spring used in the Glock ... although the 99's coil spring can be seated improperly in the frame's stepped hole and can become damaged. I think the M&P take down lever design is a bit simpler and more robust than either the 99 series or the Glock, although the lever does have to be aligned properly during field stripping disassembly/reassembly (and attention has to be paid to the small taken down lever retaining wire by an armorer during reassembly so it remains where intended).

The visual loaded chamber port on the M&P is arguably easier to see and use than the dab of red paint under the tail of the 99 extractor.

You aren't the first person to state a dislike for the paddle magazine release catch. I happen to like it, myself, though (before Walther extended it in their later production model line, at any rate).

There are some other minor things here and there which overall make the M&P series arguably a bit of an improvement over the earlier SW99/990L series, as well. If not 'improvements', then perhaps just refinements in another direction. Just depends on your perspective.

I think S&W has a winner on their hands with the M&P series. That doesn't mean they aren't still continuing to refine it, though.

Don't mistake my comments and thoughts as meaning I dislike the SW99, because I don't.

Matter of fact, I like my SW99 compact 9mm pistol quite a lot. Although I did have to replace a couple of the Walther parts early on to correct a problem, once that was done it's been a reliable, trouble-free pistol and I'm approaching the point where I'll soon have fired 10,000 rounds through it. I've replaced the striker, recoil & extractor springs for preventive maintenance.

Like most 99 series pistols with which I've had experience it took a while for the trigger to feel lighter and smoother than when NIB.

The practical accuracy of the SW99/P99 pistols I've used have been very good. Excellent, even. My SW99c is no exception. I can actually experience better consistent practical accuracy with my SW99c than with my 3913 or G26. If I didn't already own the SW99c I'd probably buy a M&P 9c ... but since I already own the SW99c (as well as a 3913, CS9 & G26) I don't really feel the need for a M&P 9c.

Just my thoughts.
 
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fastbolt

New member
Thanks.

I've offered some similar comparisons at other times in other threads, although I'm not sure where or when ... and what else I might have written that might be relevant. They're usually just off the top of my head at the time I come across such a thread topic.

I tend to consider such comparisons from 3 perspectives ...

As an owner, a firearms instructor and an armorer.

There isn't as much overlap in all 3 groups as some folks might expect, though.

For example, I've attended any number of armorer classes over the years where a surprising number of the people attending the classes were just armorers, and not firearms instructors. I've certainly known a lot of firearms instructors who weren't armorers, as well, many of whom had no interest in becoming trained as armorers.

I've always found it handy to have experience as both an instructor and an armorer when it came to diagnosing issues occurring with some shooter. In other words, being able to more easily recognize the difference between an actual firearm/ammunition issue and a shooter-induced issue. Understanding the workings of a particular firearm can be helpful in recognizing the potential causes of 'problems' while working as an instructor.

Sometimes opinions regarding what's a potential advantage and disadvantage can vary depending on your perspective, you know.

I've also tried to make sure I own at least one example of each firearm I've been trained to support as an armorer. ;)

When it comes right down to it, one of the primary reasons I originally pushed to become trained as a LE armorer was so I'd be able to support, maintain and repair my personally-owned weapons, especially once I retired. :)
 
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Housezealot

New member
Fastbolt, man that was probably the most indepth and helpful aswer I have ever recieved on these forums, thank you.
I had not even considered it from an armorers perspective.

and to answer dgludwigs question, I guess I may have spoken out of turn being that I have only one experiance with an M&P and a lot of time with the sw99. I guess I really am not a fan of the striker action comared to the single/double of the 99. I have an XDm and can't really get as comfortable with that for the same reason, I guess its unfair for me to Call something superior based on personal preference.
 

VAHunter

New member
Great post, Fastbolt. I bought an M&Pc on a bit of a whim and have really grown to like it. Always nice to know more.
 

fastbolt

New member
Although I'm an owner and user of the 1911-style pistol, I tend to like a good Traditional Double Action (DA/SA) pistol for everyday use as a defensive weapon.

That's probably due to my having carried one or another issued TDA pistol for about 20 years of my career. Before that I carried an issued revolver. I carried a Commander on my own time for many years, and I had a nice Star PD which worked well for me for a few years. Once I was finally forced to adopt a TDA pistol for service use I grudgingly gave the design a chance to prove itself ... like I had a choice ... and I finally decided it was pretty decent for ordinary LE chores for my needs.

I came to the latest reincarnation of striker-fired pistols a bit later, although I briefly tried a couple here and there beforehand.

I think the feature that attracted me to the 99 series the most was the traditional double action design of the standard model (as opposed to the Quick Action and the DAO). The replaceable grip inserts didn't hurt, any, either.

Walther achieves their traditional double action mode with an interesting sear housing block design which incorporates a single action sear and sear spring (along with another lever and spring).

I remember being told in my first SW99/P99 armorer class not to disassemble the sear housing block. The armorer manual emphasized that the housing block should not be disassembled, but then it gave instructions of how to replace the single action sear back into the housing block "in the event that the single action sear is removed from the sear housing block".

"In the event" it happened? Why would that happen?

Well, if you remove the housing block from the frame and tip it to the left, the sear pin can fall out and release the sear and its spring. :(

The pin and sear (and the sear spring) can fall out of the housing block inside the plastic bag when the assembly is being shipped, too. I got to practice reassembling one when I received the first one I ordered and it arrived somewhat disassembled. :eek:

Anyway, positioning the sear spring inside the sear, with the long leg facing downward and the open end of the spring facing forward ... and then positioning the sear and its spring inside the housing block so it can be captured by the pin ... can be both an entertaining & annoying bit of diversion.

Best not to take it apart in the first place. ;)

I always felt the 99 series never received the attention and appreciation it deserved.

I do appreciate my small Glocks ... and I certainly appreciate my M&P's, especially my M&P 45 w/thumb safeties ... but the SW99c is simply one of those guns which can make a long training & practice session enjoyable. Small, lightweight, handy, well-balanced, good ergonomics, "lively" in my hand ... certainly reliable with a variety of ammunition I've used ... and with a very smooth TDA trigger which allows me to wring excellent accuracy out of it.

I didn't care for the .40 S&W compact version quite as much.

Matter of fact, although I logged several thousands of rounds through my personally-owned standard size SW99 .40, a similar issued SW99 .40 and several other .40's I had access to for range use and which I helped support ... I find I prefer the 99 series best when chambered in 9mm. Just my preference.

Lots of good quality makes, models & calibers we have to choose from nowadays, folks. ;)
 
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Mark Milton

Moderator
Actually, somebody probably realized they had too many polymer pistols.

Sort of like GM with the different versions of the same cars, that didn't use the same parts (Buick small sedan using a timing chain, Olds sedan using a timing belt).

they had

•The Sigma
•The S&W 99.

And then they were getting ready to introduce the M&P line.

Honestly, you only need one series of half cocked and unlocked tactical tupperware, not three different versions of the same thing.
 

Housezealot

New member
the standard sw99 is singe/double action with a decocker, were as (I believe) the sigma is a striker action (I think thats the proper term)
so really it seems like that should have been the one to go in that scenerio.
I hadn't heard the term "tactical tupperware" before, but I like it!
 
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