Why DAO?
- Thread starter mySig229
- Start date
As with many simple questions, the answer is a little less simple.
The generally advised recommendation for DA/SA carry is to have the hammer down on a loaded chamber, either with or without the manual safety applied. That means a DA first shot and SA subsequent shots. There's no denying that there's a tremendous difference, both in trigger weight and trigger travel between the DA and the SA modes.
Some find that difference intolerable, or at least a hindrance to good shooting and want a consistent trigger pull for each shot. In addition, some shooters find the reach to a DA trigger to be problematic, especially in a full-sized pistol. That forces them to either manually cock the hammer or change to a different firearm. In the context of law enforcement, neither is generally acceptable.
One solution is to have a single action only (SAO) design, like the 1911, where the gun is carried cocked & locked (hammer back, manual safety on). However, not everyone is comfortable with cocked & locked carry and again, in the context of LE, this can be an issue.
Striker-fired DAO is a second solution. Each trigger pull is not as short or as light as an SAO trigger but also not as long or as heavy as a true DA trigger. While preference certainly plays a part, most will agree (although grudgingly at times) that while DAO may not be an ideal compromise, if implemented well, it is not a significant hindrance to good shooting after a shooter becomes accustomed to it.
Striker-fired DAO also helps deal with shooters who have trouble reaching a long DA trigger, and in many implementations which do not have manual safeties, it also simplifies the manual of arms to something that is fairly similar to a DA revolver. That was a major selling point during the era when many shooters and LEOs were used to carrying/shooting DA revolvers but wanted (or were forced by their department) to switch over to carrying an autopistol. The shooter doesn't have to worry about learning a new manual of arms involving dealing with a manual safety, they could merely point & pull and things went bang. Just like it always had with their revolvers.
I like the simplicity of DAO for self/home defense. I find that I am able to achieve very good accuracy with that approach, but I admit that I have done my very best precision handgun shooting with SA triggers.
When I compare my more "serious" handguns to my "range toys", I find that the former category contains more DAO type pistols while the latter are nearly all DA/SA or SA.
sigcurious
New member
IMHO, while many striker fire guns are technically double action, I would differentiate them from hammer fired DAO pistols. Beyond that, I own SAO, striker and da/sa, I like them all. Hammer fired DAO has not found it's way into my collection yet.
That's a good point.
DAO hammer fired guns were another solution. The striker fired DAOs gave a consistent trigger pull that was lighter and shorter than true DA but heavier and longer than SA. DAO hammer fired guns gave you a true DA pull for every shot--no real break on trigger pull length or pull weight. Basically the ONLY things you got were a consistent pull for every shot and a simpler manual of arms.
DAO hammer fired guns were another solution. The striker fired DAOs gave a consistent trigger pull that was lighter and shorter than true DA but heavier and longer than SA. DAO hammer fired guns gave you a true DA pull for every shot--no real break on trigger pull length or pull weight. Basically the ONLY things you got were a consistent pull for every shot and a simpler manual of arms.
sigcurious
New member
The real question is, what would everyone consider the LC9 action...it cocks the hammer and releases it, but has no second strike capability like most striker fired. DAO/2? 
I only carry DAO because they're simple (no manual safety) allows instant draw and fire. The longer trigger travel adds a little layer of protection from stupidity while handling it for dust bunny removal, unholstering to let the sweat dry out, switching holsters, etc.
That longer trigger also adds a good buffer for messy nerves under stress.
(I use "DAO" loosely and apply it to striker fired and so on - safety'less long trigger pulls as well as the Glock style)
For range pistols I prefer true SA's for their trigger feel.
That longer trigger also adds a good buffer for messy nerves under stress.
(I use "DAO" loosely and apply it to striker fired and so on - safety'less long trigger pulls as well as the Glock style)
For range pistols I prefer true SA's for their trigger feel.
Why DAO? I have chosen a DAO-type action for defense so that I keep my confusion to a minimum.
I loosely group guns into "must cock hammer" such as my Ruger Blackhawks, "move a lever" such as my S&W 59 and Ruger 22s, and "no lever" guns such as my S&W Sigma SW40F and 442 revolver.
My single-action revolvers are exclusively range toys.
The "move a lever" guns are usually for range use but can be pressed into self defense duty, while the "no lever" revolver and DAO action guns are not as much fun at the range but are always loaded and ready for defense use.
I often remind my wife that, whether she picks up the revolver or the pistol, she needs only to point the gun, concentrate on the question of if/when to fire, and just squeeze the trigger to fire if necessary.
I loosely group guns into "must cock hammer" such as my Ruger Blackhawks, "move a lever" such as my S&W 59 and Ruger 22s, and "no lever" guns such as my S&W Sigma SW40F and 442 revolver.
My single-action revolvers are exclusively range toys.
The "move a lever" guns are usually for range use but can be pressed into self defense duty, while the "no lever" revolver and DAO action guns are not as much fun at the range but are always loaded and ready for defense use.
I often remind my wife that, whether she picks up the revolver or the pistol, she needs only to point the gun, concentrate on the question of if/when to fire, and just squeeze the trigger to fire if necessary.
RedneckFur
New member
I've owned all three versions, and I like all three pretty well.
The gun I ccw most often is a striker DAO. The trigger pull is long, but not terribly heavy, and mine has a manual safety as well (Ruger SR9)
At the range, and fairly often for ccw, I carry a CZ75b, a SA/DA gun. I don't find myself having much trouble with it, but when I carry it, I carry it cocked and locked as if it were a 1911.
Which brings me to a question of my own. I've always assumed that carrying a CZ75b hammer down on loaded chamber was unsafe. Is that so? How do most DA/SA gun owners prefer to carry their firearms?
The gun I ccw most often is a striker DAO. The trigger pull is long, but not terribly heavy, and mine has a manual safety as well (Ruger SR9)
At the range, and fairly often for ccw, I carry a CZ75b, a SA/DA gun. I don't find myself having much trouble with it, but when I carry it, I carry it cocked and locked as if it were a 1911.
Which brings me to a question of my own. I've always assumed that carrying a CZ75b hammer down on loaded chamber was unsafe. Is that so? How do most DA/SA gun owners prefer to carry their firearms?
Most DA/SA guns have hammers that do not rest right on the firing pin. It's usually held off of it by a spring or mechanical block. In addition a firing pin block pretty much insures that even if that hammer were to go forward, if the trigger wasn't pulled the gun still wouldn't fire.
The CZ 75B , I think, has a firing pin block. The older 75s, pre B, did not. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. It should be safe to carry hammer down round in the chamber. Your "safety" is the long DA pull. Personally I prefer it that way as there is nothing to disengage, just bring the target into view and fire.
And Sig, HK, FN etc have no manual safety (HK can be had either way). So the staemetn is a a contradiction or a misunderstanding of what DA/SA guns can be (PPK etc do have a manual safety build in, but many do not as the safety is the heavy DA pull just like a DA revolver (which should be listed as DA/SA even if SA is manual!)
And no, I do not think the strikers with their vastly reduced safety presence are an answer (arguably that's what strikers are in reality if not by pure definition).
NYC insisted that they have a heavier true to life trigger, so what did you get? Basically an always hard to shoot Sig/HK/FN. (read cheap as it was a sweetheart deal that only PDs got from glock)
So, ultimately we have DAO because glock bought market share via by offering cheap deals to the police departments (before most realized the downside), which then got the public wanting the same gun which came with the DAO trigger mechanisms creating the perfect storm for DAO gaining popularity outside it niche attraction (cheap prices)
Its called the Berry Bonds syndrome. As long as it was SFOs slugger hyped up on steroids, the SFO fans adored him. The rest of the league hated him. DAO is the same, the fault comes first followed by the defense because you own it (most people). Of course there are some that can't make that justification and admit its faults (either live with it or sell it)
Lighten up the trigger and DAO it can be a good range gun action, but then of course its an ever worse safety hazard.
What funny is that some are driven to prove its superior and used the DAO in competition which then gets pointed at proving how much better it is.
In actuality, the DA/SA has been had the same thing done. An individual decided he wanted to prove it was capable of better, his technique was to start to pull the trigger as it cleared the holster and by the time he was on target he essentially was at SA break point and fired.
All that proved was that exceptionally capable shooters can make either action work, it doesn't mean anything for proving good one way or the other in the real world.
And when its modified for competition it proves absolutely nothing. Look at the Olympic target guns. Absolutely useless in the real world. Modify a DAO with a very light trigger to be competitive only proves you can get a light trigger, buy a better barrel and match up with anyone.
Technosavant
New member
I currently own SAO and DAO semiauto guns... I don't have any SA/DA or striker fired ones at the moment (I have had SA/DA, but not right now).
In my own experience, the SA/DA guns can have the mushiest triggers of them all, and not just in DA mode. The SA trigger doesn't have much feel to it at all. I like the simplicity of the DAO model, but I also readily admit my P250s aren't quite as simple to shoot as well as my 1911s. That longer trigger pull can potentially result in the shooter pulling the muzzle off target ever so little. But the trigger pull, while long, needn't be heavy; IMO, the P250 shows that rather well. It's a long pull but a light one.
Ultimately it comes down to personal preference. There's reasons to go every possible way. DAO has the advantage of being relatively safe from inadvertent trigger pulls, but is generally harder to be as accurate as some other forms. SAO feels great and is accurate, but a short/light trigger pull can mean rounds inadvertently fired and also mandates a separate safety to carry safely. SA/DA splits the difference- it does without the safety, but often manages to have a trigger that is just as long and mushy as a DAO for the first shot (after that it's just mushy).
You pick the disadvantages you want to live with.
In my own experience, the SA/DA guns can have the mushiest triggers of them all, and not just in DA mode. The SA trigger doesn't have much feel to it at all. I like the simplicity of the DAO model, but I also readily admit my P250s aren't quite as simple to shoot as well as my 1911s. That longer trigger pull can potentially result in the shooter pulling the muzzle off target ever so little. But the trigger pull, while long, needn't be heavy; IMO, the P250 shows that rather well. It's a long pull but a light one.
Ultimately it comes down to personal preference. There's reasons to go every possible way. DAO has the advantage of being relatively safe from inadvertent trigger pulls, but is generally harder to be as accurate as some other forms. SAO feels great and is accurate, but a short/light trigger pull can mean rounds inadvertently fired and also mandates a separate safety to carry safely. SA/DA splits the difference- it does without the safety, but often manages to have a trigger that is just as long and mushy as a DAO for the first shot (after that it's just mushy).
You pick the disadvantages you want to live with.
S_Constitutionist
New member
I feel the same about DA/SA - I find them unusable. I liked the concept until I took a challenging course with one; rapid double taps with the DA/SA transition was a huge hindrance. Im sure it could be mastered, but I prefer to focus on what works for me better. I just dont really understand the intent... If you want an SA trigger, carry an SAO gun and train to use the safety. If you dont want a safety, then master the DAO trigger which is at least consistent. I constantly see people hand-cocking their DA/SA guns at the range, which only emphasizes my point.
Im an SAO guy but my EDC gun is hammer fired DAO. Different strokes for different folks I suppose.
Im an SAO guy but my EDC gun is hammer fired DAO. Different strokes for different folks I suppose.
carguychris
New member
FWIW both the discontinued S&W 3rd-gen DAO models and SIGs with the DAK trigger were designed to have a lighter and shorter DA pull than the equivalent DA/SA models. Of course, guns with the purposefully stiffened "NYPD" trigger are a different story.
One curious detail of the 3rd-gen S&Ws is that the DAO guns lack the second-strike capability found on standard DA/SA guns; the slide must be moved at least partway to the rear to re-engage the sear and partially cock the hammer before the trigger will function again. In practice, this means that if a round fails to fire, the slide MUST be racked before attempting to fire again- just like a typical striker-fired plastic pistol!
Odd, I have a great trigger. Nice smooth pull on the DA and a very crisp SA pull. (Jericho/Baby Eagle)
I agree that the DA/SA on my old Ruger P89 was horrible. It was purchased because it was cheap and I later found out it was a tank. Awesome gun but it would never win points for accuracy or trigger comfort. Adequate in most ways except for reliability, which I'd put it against almost anything.
The Beretta 92FS had an ok DA pull but I also found the SA to be great on it.
Not sure who hand cocks their hammer. If you're serious about making a DA/SA setup your SD gun, you should be practicing the first shot as a DA and all subsequent shots as SA. Maybe change it up by hitting the decocker and resetting to DA on occassion.
I haven't carried in years, but it used to be hammer down with safety off. I wouldn't have the safety on unless it was a frame mounted safety. Even then I'd want something the size of a boat oar, like the M1911 safety.
I agree that the DA/SA on my old Ruger P89 was horrible. It was purchased because it was cheap and I later found out it was a tank. Awesome gun but it would never win points for accuracy or trigger comfort. Adequate in most ways except for reliability, which I'd put it against almost anything.
The Beretta 92FS had an ok DA pull but I also found the SA to be great on it.
Not sure who hand cocks their hammer. If you're serious about making a DA/SA setup your SD gun, you should be practicing the first shot as a DA and all subsequent shots as SA. Maybe change it up by hitting the decocker and resetting to DA on occassion.
I haven't carried in years, but it used to be hammer down with safety off. I wouldn't have the safety on unless it was a frame mounted safety. Even then I'd want something the size of a boat oar, like the M1911 safety.
Shadi Khalil
New member
How long have you shooting? Am I wrong to assume you are new to shooting?
I have always been a big DA/SA fan from my first experience with semi autos. It took me some time to master then appreciate the simplicity and ease of a DAO trigger.
I have always been a big DA/SA fan from my first experience with semi autos. It took me some time to master then appreciate the simplicity and ease of a DAO trigger.