Why arent 22 hornets made in lever guns

[WyomingWhitetail]

So ive been wasting time surfing the net looking at guns and cartridges and i got to thinking why is that you never see 22 hornets in lever guns. I have always wanted a hornet ever since i was a little kid. No reason really other than i just wanted one and while most other cartridges will put the hornet to shame it would still be a good walking around plinking gun. Looking at the case it seems as if it would work in a lever gun, i mean it has a tapered body with very shallow shoulders similar to other lever gun cartridges like 30-30 or .219 zipper. I know that the .218 bee and the .219 zipper have been produced so why not the hornet? Is there any physical reason that one would not work well in a lever action?

 

[Lemmon]

It could be that the hornet uses a pointed bullet. Most lever actions have tubular magazines and the bullets are flat points to prevent accidental ignition. If the lever action used a clip or load method such as the Ruger Bolt 22 hornet that would work. Just my thoughts on the subject. I am sure there are others in this forum that have much more knowledge than I do. It is possible that in the past there may have been a lever 22 hornet. Lemmon

 

[Scorch]

Originally (like 80 or so years ago), the 22 Hornet was chambered in single shots (notably the Winchester 1885) and bolt actions (Winchester Model 43 and Model 54). Hmmm, notice anything? Right, Winchester, they owned the design originally. But they saw the need for a lever gun 22 centerfire cartridge, but instead of retooling and inventing a low-use product, they came up with the 218 Bee, a 22 centerfire that uses the 32-20 cartridge (and more importantly fit into Model 1892 lever guns which Winchester also chambered for 32-20). The Hornet uses a slightly longer cartridge case with a slightly smaller head size, and would have required its own rifle design and parts. The 218 Bee has just a little more case capacity than the Hornet, so it launches the little bullets at the same speed using lower pressures, and it gave comparable ballistics.

So, why doesn't someone make one now? Most lever guns did not meet the accuracy requirements of varmint shooters, the target market of 22 centerfire cartridges. Maybe someone could convince the boys at Browning to chamber the BLR for 22 Hornet.

 

[WyomingWhitetail]

so the hornet is just a smidgen to long for a 92 action? If it could work that would be a sweet little trail gun. How about a marlin 94 would you be able to make a hornet work in one of them? or is the hornet just the right length to be to long for a short action lever gun but small enough it would be kinda wasteful in a long action one? Im already getting ready to build a marlin 336 in .219 zipper just curious about this.

 

[Hawg]

It might work ok in a 94 action with a round nosed bullet. They chamber them in .357 and .44 mag but some do have feeding problems. You're probably going to have to have a custom extractor made tho. I don't see it as being worth the effort.

 

[PetahW]

Beside the pointed bullet issue, don't lose sight that the Hornet has one of the smallest diameter cartridge cases, letting magazine/feeding problems arise.

Mechanically, fit-wise, the Hornet's a better "fit" in a smaller action - like (say) a Marlin 39a oe Winchester 9422.

The problems with that is, that not only are the RF leverguns a bit too small, they're also not built strong enough to take the Hornet's CF pressures.

Add the problematic mechanical issues to the costs of re-engineering an existing design or whomping up a new design just to fit the Hornet - when .218 Bee leverguns have already BTDTNTS - and a Hornet levergun would be contra-indicated, especially given the scant demand for such.

.

 

[Scorch]

Im already getting ready to build a marlin 336 in .219 zipper just curious about this.

Build the Zipper. More power, flatter trajectory, and it fits with only minor modifications to the action. Adapting a 336 to 22 Hornet would be a nightmare.

 

[WyomingWhitetail]

well im definitely building the zipper. i was just curious about this and maybe a future project but looks like ill just have to go with a single shot or something if i ever want a hornet too. To bad as a hornet lever or pump would sure be a fun gun.

 

[langenc]

One of the reasons the Bee and Zipper bit the dust was the levers. Shooters with them want accuracy and that comes from bolts.

 

[Ideal Tool]

Hello, WyomingWhitetail. Although the .22 Hornet pre-dates the Winchester
.219 Zipper, manufactures saw the writting on the wall. When Winchester brought out the Mod. 64, it was invisioned as a handy rifle for the westerner on horseback for eliminating pests. Unfortunatly, the accuracy of the zipper was wasted in a lever action, with it's springy rear lock-up, and at that time, no provision for a scope..unless in a clunky side mount. No, the varmint shooters of even those days demanded more from their rifles. The eastern woodchuck hunters are the ones who really took off with the Hornet, and their demand for top accuracy resulted in many fine high-grade schutzen and match single shots destroyed just for the actions. Most chuck hunters of that day prefered a nice single-shot over a bolt gun..many still do..including yours truly!

 

[mete]

At one time the Hornet was made for .223 bullets but later changed to .224. Europeans held on to the .223 longer than we did. Can anyone tell me when the changes were made ?

 

[a7mmnut]

http://www.gunnersden.com/index.htm.22hornet.html

-7-

 

[a7mmnut]

The original levergun .22:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.6x52mmR


When will we see a 5.7x28 in a bolt/levergun?

-7-

 

[Scorch]

At one time the Hornet was made for .223 bullets but later changed to .224. Europeans held on to the .223 longer than we did. Can anyone tell me when the changes were made ?

Winchester made the pre-WW2 Hornets with .223" groove diameter. After WW2, Hornets have used the .224" groove diameter.

 

[Winchester_73]

A couple things

(and more importantly fit into Model 1892 lever guns which Winchester also chambered for 32-20).

Even though it fits the action, the 1892 Winchester was never chambered for the 218 bee. However, its successors were: the models 53 and 65. There is some speculation that there were 1892s in 218 bee but it is also said that these "1892"s had a model 53 receiver and barrel which to me means they were a model 53 anyways.

Winchester chambered only the model 64 in .219 zipper which was a model 94 variant. These are quite scarce and expensive today.

In addition to the model 43 and 54, Winchester also chambered the venerable model 70 in 22 hornet.

 

[WyomingWhitetail]

I have read about the .22 savage high power but the .227 bullet size would limit it more as far as bullet selection than a .224 bullet .22. I might have to keep an eye out for a NEF handi rifle in .22 hornet, my dad has one in .223 and it will shoot 1/4 in groups all day long, and stick the the .219 zipper, .218 bee and .22 high power for lever action .22.

 

[Ideal Tool]

Hello, mete. The old .22WCF, the black-powder forerunner of the Hornet had a groove dia. of .228. The old .22-10-45, & .22-15-60 used .226 groove dia.
So the technology was already out there to build .224 groove dia. barrels when the Hornet came on the scene in the late 1920's. The main reason the
.223 groove/bullet size got started was you have to remember, the Hornet, unlike most new cartridges didn't linger long as a "wildcat" Winchester saw the potential and picked it up right away...so quickly that there was ammunition on the market before any commercial rifles were available! Guy's wanted to shoot this new small-bore hot shot & so various .22 rimfire rifles, both single shots & bolt guns were re-chambered & of course the tighter groove dia. of the rimfires would have raised pressures, so the .223 bullets came about.

 

[sthomper]

to me, lever action with approprite bullet in 223 would have been a fun gun...with something around 1000ftlbs in energy.

woudl something physics wise have made such a round a poor choice in some way??

with the existing hornet case ( as i have read about online??) could an appropriate bullet work in a tube fed lever gun??

 

[HKFan9]

When will we see a 5.7x28 in a bolt/levergun?

Savage was going to release two guns chambered in 5.7x28 however they scraped the idea due to chamber pressure issues, I was already set to order one since I own the FNH FiveseveN and the PS90.

Seems like the best bet right now is to get a single shot one.

 

[Jim Watson]

The ORIGINAL .22 Hornet was built on a 1922 Springfield.
The LR barrel was rechambered, the firing pin moved to centerfire, and ammo loaded with .22 WCF brass and .22 Velo Dog bullets which had been converted from FMJ to JSP by reversing them in the bullet swage and reshaping them. But the diameter was unchanged at .222-.223".
The dimensions were standardized when the cartridge went into factory production. Until it became more convenient to use .224" barrels and bullets for all .22 centerfires.