It seems that for the last 10 or more years, there has been a real push for police and military to move to double action pistols over the "classic" single actions such as 1911 or High-power. I have always found (as most competitive shooters do) that single actions are more accurate, and usually faster. Why the trend in the other direction?
Why always DA for police/military?
- Thread starter Murphy
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Despite the fact that LEO's are trained to keep their finger off the trigger until they intend to fire, there is a fear that a single action firearm will not provide that little bit of a cushion that a double action trigger pull will provide.
So, you might say that liability and not officer safety prompted the decision.
Personally, I don't feel like I lost anything when I went from a Gov't Model to a Glock, but I am only speaking for myself.
Blues
So, you might say that liability and not officer safety prompted the decision.
Personally, I don't feel like I lost anything when I went from a Gov't Model to a Glock, but I am only speaking for myself.
Blues
Rob Pincus
New member
Blues, I agree with your sentiments 100%, though I am still a fan of the 1911 style weapons, for everyday carry or duty the DA guns (or safe-action as the boys in Smyrna say..) offer some very significant advantages in ease of use and practical safety.
spark@onestopknifeshop.com
Wise Guy
I can't speak from a LEO point of view, but when I was in the military, and carried a pistol for a sidearm, it was always in flap holster. On top of that, it was a Beratta, so when put on safe, IIRC it automattically decocked.
So, as far as I was concerned, speed wasn't the priority issue, weapon security was. Once you got it out of the holster, then a DA trigger could be absolutely neccessary, since you didn't have that much time to spare...
Besides, it's easier for the average Joe to remember to just pull the damn trigger, less for them to screw up, and less AD/ND's
Spark
So, as far as I was concerned, speed wasn't the priority issue, weapon security was. Once you got it out of the holster, then a DA trigger could be absolutely neccessary, since you didn't have that much time to spare...
Besides, it's easier for the average Joe to remember to just pull the damn trigger, less for them to screw up, and less AD/ND's
Spark
I don't think a gov't model cocked and locked is less safe than a Glock with a 5 1/2# trigger. The main problem with C & L is it is "evil" looking to the uninformed. An innocuous looking firearm apears to be politically correct. As an aside, a C & L 1911 is more difficult for the enemy to fire in the case of dispossession.
Doc,
I hope I didn't give the impression that I felt the single action weapon was less safe. I was merely attempting to address the question that was posed.
I carried a cocked and locked Gov't Model on SRT for a couple of years before going to the Glock.
I was happy (and proficient) with both.
Though, to be honest, the Colt did develop a problem with stovepiping despite throating, polishing and changing the extractor.
I am happy with my Glocks, but the 1911 and its clones are fine weapons IMHO.
Blues
I hope I didn't give the impression that I felt the single action weapon was less safe. I was merely attempting to address the question that was posed.
I carried a cocked and locked Gov't Model on SRT for a couple of years before going to the Glock.
I was happy (and proficient) with both.
Though, to be honest, the Colt did develop a problem with stovepiping despite throating, polishing and changing the extractor.
I am happy with my Glocks, but the 1911 and its clones are fine weapons IMHO.
Blues
IMHO - I know you were't discussing safety of Glock vs. 1911. The point is that many people do think the Glock, because it is not cocked un til the trigger is pressed, is inherently safer than the 1911 C & L. I think the C & L 1911 with a 4# trigger is safer than the Glock because of the integral safeties and the necessity to release the thumb safety as well as having a grip on the gun before firing. It is very unlikely that a 1911 will discharge accidentally, this can not be said for many other handguns. (This is a great medium for friendly and polite discussion of divergent ideas, even not so divergent ideas.)
JBP, I'm not aware of many agencies, except INS, going to DAO pistols. Most DA semi-autos go into single action mode after the first shot is fired. This results in NOT having the same trigger pull for each round. By design, single action pistols and revolvers do have the same pull for each round. I maintain that disallowing single action for service weapon is for appearances.
spark@onestopknifeshop.com
Wise Guy
Doc, again, I disagree. I don't think that it's for appearance at all, I think it's for wanting the weapon to fire when the trigger is pulled: hammer up or down.
SAO pistols are pretty much useless when the hammer is down on them. Add to that the potential of ND's from people trying to lower the hammer without discharging the round, etc etc etc, and all the poor gunhandling skills add up.
Spark
SAO pistols are pretty much useless when the hammer is down on them. Add to that the potential of ND's from people trying to lower the hammer without discharging the round, etc etc etc, and all the poor gunhandling skills add up.
Spark
Hey guys. I've been thinking of this as I read the posts, and poor gun handling skills came up. And then it hit me, and this is a scary thought, carrying a SA weapon takes a little more training in my opinion(lowering the hammer on a live chamber, etc), and we all know training costs money, right? Is it possible that alot of depts dont want to spend the money or dont have the money to train that much, and buying safe-actions or DAO or DA's to make the officer's safer? My major problem with that is if you have to shoot somebody you still have to hit em. I think most leos would tell you they'd like to go to the range more each year. I dont think you can replace good training in gun handling with a different action. What do you guys think?
My thinking on this issue is pretty simple.
Although many argue that when the #$%* hits the fan that we revert to our training, there is also Murphy's Law. I am a strong believer in Murphy.
The reason I prefer the Glock is that when that moment comes, there is nothing extraneous to think about other than acquiring your target and making the proper decision as to "shoot/don't shoot".
No safeties, no decocking lever, no dropping the hammer on a live round, no change from double action to single action, etc. And, as a bonus, I have a high capacity weapon that has proven reliable in the field.
When stress factors are high, errors are more prone to happen, and may have more severe consequences.
For me, keeping it simple makes all the difference. LE is different than home defense, and there are myriad thoughts and activities often going on contemporaneously.
Again, this is not to state that there aren't a zillion SAO shooters out there who are much more proficient than me, etc.
When you are dealing with large departments, even agencies that qualify four times a year (like mine), the overriding consideration is safety, and everyone knows that firing a weapon four times a year hardly makes one Wyatt Earp.
My slightly more than two cents worth.
Blues
Although many argue that when the #$%* hits the fan that we revert to our training, there is also Murphy's Law. I am a strong believer in Murphy.
The reason I prefer the Glock is that when that moment comes, there is nothing extraneous to think about other than acquiring your target and making the proper decision as to "shoot/don't shoot".
No safeties, no decocking lever, no dropping the hammer on a live round, no change from double action to single action, etc. And, as a bonus, I have a high capacity weapon that has proven reliable in the field.
When stress factors are high, errors are more prone to happen, and may have more severe consequences.
For me, keeping it simple makes all the difference. LE is different than home defense, and there are myriad thoughts and activities often going on contemporaneously.
Again, this is not to state that there aren't a zillion SAO shooters out there who are much more proficient than me, etc.
When you are dealing with large departments, even agencies that qualify four times a year (like mine), the overriding consideration is safety, and everyone knows that firing a weapon four times a year hardly makes one Wyatt Earp.
My slightly more than two cents worth.
Blues
I guess you don't understane the government model. Cocked and Locked, it does fire every time the trigger is pulled, provided the thumb safety is released. Anyone who would lower the hammer on a hot chamber is begging disaster, crrying with hammer down on a live round also is a disaster waiting to happen.
Well Doc, we'll have to agree to disagree here.
I say my couple of years SRT experience carrying a Government Model qualifies me to speak about it.
Also, when you become familiar with case histories where guys have been in a combat situation and due to stress or what have you are trying to fire a weapon that is on safe, or empty, or has not had a round chambered, it makes you (me) want to keep things simple. Different people react differently under stress. The fact that I might handle a situation one way, does not mean the next guy will.
On the other hand, despite the fact that I liked the gun, I did have the mechanical problems I discussed earlier.
Nobody's trying to change your mind or invalidate your love for your 1911.
But don't presume that if one offers a different point of view that he doesn't understand the Government Model.
I think I've said enough on this subject.
Blues
I say my couple of years SRT experience carrying a Government Model qualifies me to speak about it.
Also, when you become familiar with case histories where guys have been in a combat situation and due to stress or what have you are trying to fire a weapon that is on safe, or empty, or has not had a round chambered, it makes you (me) want to keep things simple. Different people react differently under stress. The fact that I might handle a situation one way, does not mean the next guy will.
On the other hand, despite the fact that I liked the gun, I did have the mechanical problems I discussed earlier.
Nobody's trying to change your mind or invalidate your love for your 1911.
But don't presume that if one offers a different point of view that he doesn't understand the Government Model.
I think I've said enough on this subject.
Blues
Rich Lucibella
Staff
amacks:
DA: Double Action. The hammer is down. Trigger pull is long in order to cock the hammer back *and* release it.
SA: Single Action. The hammer is cocked back. Trigger pull is short as it needs only release the hammer.
"Safe Action". (Glocks and some clones) These are striker fired and combine the best (worst?) features of both SA & DA with an intermediate legnth pull to "cock" and release the striker. Every shot requires the same pressure and length of trigger travel.
Complaints about most DA autos is that after the first long pull, the slide recoils, cocking the hammer and resulting in single action trigger after that. Therefore, with different trigger pulls from the first to the remaining shots, a fair amount of practice is required to become proficient.
The DA Only "solution" by some manufacturers, for reasons of liability that Blues has exlained, is to render the piece incapable of single action....as the slide returns to battery the hammer decocks with it. All shots are DA. IMHO, this "fix" is an absurdity meant for the politically correct, the tactically lazy or the LE staff found at the mercy of higher ups that fall into the first two categories.
To all: I've seen a fair amount here about "decocking" a single action weapon like the 1911. Why would one ever do this? The piece is meant to be in "safe" mode cocked and locked. Either you carry it that way or carry one of the other fine alternatives in DA or striker. The only time the hammer should be dropped without firing a 1911 type weapon is after unloading, press checking and pointing the muzzle at a safe backstop. Even then, it should be lowered.
YMMV
Rich
Rich
DA: Double Action. The hammer is down. Trigger pull is long in order to cock the hammer back *and* release it.
SA: Single Action. The hammer is cocked back. Trigger pull is short as it needs only release the hammer.
"Safe Action". (Glocks and some clones) These are striker fired and combine the best (worst?) features of both SA & DA with an intermediate legnth pull to "cock" and release the striker. Every shot requires the same pressure and length of trigger travel.
Complaints about most DA autos is that after the first long pull, the slide recoils, cocking the hammer and resulting in single action trigger after that. Therefore, with different trigger pulls from the first to the remaining shots, a fair amount of practice is required to become proficient.
The DA Only "solution" by some manufacturers, for reasons of liability that Blues has exlained, is to render the piece incapable of single action....as the slide returns to battery the hammer decocks with it. All shots are DA. IMHO, this "fix" is an absurdity meant for the politically correct, the tactically lazy or the LE staff found at the mercy of higher ups that fall into the first two categories.
To all: I've seen a fair amount here about "decocking" a single action weapon like the 1911. Why would one ever do this? The piece is meant to be in "safe" mode cocked and locked. Either you carry it that way or carry one of the other fine alternatives in DA or striker. The only time the hammer should be dropped without firing a 1911 type weapon is after unloading, press checking and pointing the muzzle at a safe backstop. Even then, it should be lowered.
YMMV
Rich
Rich
Rob Pincus
New member
Okay, I'll jump back in here....
Doc, In some ways a weapon with a positive safety (1911, Beretta, etc.) is more safe than a weapon without one (revolver, Glocks, many DOAs) But, I think you are missing the repeate point that it takes more training and higher "firearms Awareness Level" (hereafter reffered to as FAL) to use a cocked & locked weapon safely.
I have heard a lot more stories about Accidental Discharges with a 1911 type gun than I have with a revolver, I'm sure that you will have to admit the same. Is this the gun's fault? no. Is this a design problem? no. Is it a training issue? YES.
The minimal amount of firearms training that the average LEO gets almost DEMANDS that the gun be simple, and what could be simpler than a revolver type action?
Doc, In some ways a weapon with a positive safety (1911, Beretta, etc.) is more safe than a weapon without one (revolver, Glocks, many DOAs) But, I think you are missing the repeate point that it takes more training and higher "firearms Awareness Level" (hereafter reffered to as FAL) to use a cocked & locked weapon safely.
I have heard a lot more stories about Accidental Discharges with a 1911 type gun than I have with a revolver, I'm sure that you will have to admit the same. Is this the gun's fault? no. Is this a design problem? no. Is it a training issue? YES.
The minimal amount of firearms training that the average LEO gets almost DEMANDS that the gun be simple, and what could be simpler than a revolver type action?
As a police officer I like having a double action gun. I am issued a S+W model 4576 in 45 ACP. Many times I have had a suspect at gun point then he starts to run. I start chasing him trying to get my gun in the holster without shooting myself in the leg. Yes I keep my finger off the trigger but 3.5 compared to 15 pounds is kind of scary.
During building clearing for alarms is another good example. Even if not for me for my partners not shooting me in the back. Alot of cops cant shoot. Most cops dont shoot alot and have no military background.
I love 1911A1s and cary one alot but on duty I feel better about a double action.
I wonder how many ADs the FBI will get now that there HRT has 1911s. Most of the FBI guys I have met know less about guns than the average street cop.
During building clearing for alarms is another good example. Even if not for me for my partners not shooting me in the back. Alot of cops cant shoot. Most cops dont shoot alot and have no military background.
I love 1911A1s and cary one alot but on duty I feel better about a double action.
I wonder how many ADs the FBI will get now that there HRT has 1911s. Most of the FBI guys I have met know less about guns than the average street cop.
Many LE agencies made the switch because they looked at the guns they had and said "Hey, we need new guns!" They went and looked at the marked and saw that most of the top guns out there are DA guns, with DAO guns billed as "safer." Police commissioners are not exempt from the magic of marketing. I've seen some similar descisions made because certain factory reps made the right call at the right time - Not because they sold the best. DA guns are the new hi tech wonders. I haven't seen SIG make a new SAO lately, let alone market it for LE. Oh yeah there are the Kimbers and other new SAs out there - but who are they marketed for?
I know many officers who still carry SA 1911 style guns... I was at a College football game last year... several officers were there - I noticed one had a 1911 cocked and locked - in the middle of thousands of citizens. I didn't feel endangered, no one else around me did, no one around me even noticed! We are our own worst judges! We are so selfconscience we think people even know what bullets we carry. The don't. They don't even care. MOST citizens are sheep, following there own herds and dont have time to worry about the LE guy's tools. The people who do care are either other good guys and thus on our side and support us, or are badguys and dont want LE to have any advantages.
When I was in the service, I always had a 1911 pistol. I NEVER touched an M9 until after I got out. Funny, my units got new Humm-Vees, A2s, and even a couple Mark 19s, and a fifty cal... but not 9MMs. We felt just fine about that. We also took the flap on the holster and tucked it back behind the webbelt when we thought we would be going into a bad situation - okay, we always had the flaps tucked back...
I know many officers who still carry SA 1911 style guns... I was at a College football game last year... several officers were there - I noticed one had a 1911 cocked and locked - in the middle of thousands of citizens. I didn't feel endangered, no one else around me did, no one around me even noticed! We are our own worst judges! We are so selfconscience we think people even know what bullets we carry. The don't. They don't even care. MOST citizens are sheep, following there own herds and dont have time to worry about the LE guy's tools. The people who do care are either other good guys and thus on our side and support us, or are badguys and dont want LE to have any advantages.
When I was in the service, I always had a 1911 pistol. I NEVER touched an M9 until after I got out. Funny, my units got new Humm-Vees, A2s, and even a couple Mark 19s, and a fifty cal... but not 9MMs. We felt just fine about that. We also took the flap on the holster and tucked it back behind the webbelt when we thought we would be going into a bad situation - okay, we always had the flaps tucked back...
Recall that about 15-20 years ago, almost all law enforcement agencies issued only revolvers to their officers. Officers were trained to use those revolvers in the DA mode. Indeed, some agencies like LAPD even ground off the SA notch to preclude firing in the SA mode. There were two reasons for DA mode.
First, single action was considered too slow in a gunfight and officers were to engage and disable a theat as quickly as possible. Taking the time to cock one's weapon could give your adversary time to aim and put one into you. Thus, most agencies had their officers trained to shoot only in the DA mode.
The second reason is the prevention of unintentional discharge. Firearms can discharge even with the finger off the trigger thanks to the startle effect. 90% of the muscles in the hand serve to contract it. Thus, when startled, it is reflexive to contract one's hand (or even jump back). A finger near the trigger could engage with sufficient pressure (4 lbs) such that a cocked firearm could discharge.
Now, as administrators and chiefs became enlightened, agencies began permitting officers to carry semiautomatics. The stigma against old slabside was too strong for most chiefs and the DA was preferred by them.
Thus, most agencies adopted the DA/SA pistol. The problem was that many of the older officers could not adapt to the dual trigger pulls. Rangemasters clamored for a DAO gun which would have only one single trigger. S&W, Sig, Ruger and Beretta (and I suppose Glock falls into this category) and the firearms transition went smoother, especially for older cops who found the DAO trigger pull very familar with their old revolvers. Indeed, in some cases, shooting scores actually went up.
You have to remember that most cops are not firearms enthusiasts and the gun is just another tool of the trade. Not that there aren't shooters out there. Look at Mas Ayoob, Jim Cirillo, John Pride to name a few. The non-gun bug cop will not spend as much time practicing and mastering the DA/SA trigger like you folks out there in cyberland.
First, single action was considered too slow in a gunfight and officers were to engage and disable a theat as quickly as possible. Taking the time to cock one's weapon could give your adversary time to aim and put one into you. Thus, most agencies had their officers trained to shoot only in the DA mode.
The second reason is the prevention of unintentional discharge. Firearms can discharge even with the finger off the trigger thanks to the startle effect. 90% of the muscles in the hand serve to contract it. Thus, when startled, it is reflexive to contract one's hand (or even jump back). A finger near the trigger could engage with sufficient pressure (4 lbs) such that a cocked firearm could discharge.
Now, as administrators and chiefs became enlightened, agencies began permitting officers to carry semiautomatics. The stigma against old slabside was too strong for most chiefs and the DA was preferred by them.
Thus, most agencies adopted the DA/SA pistol. The problem was that many of the older officers could not adapt to the dual trigger pulls. Rangemasters clamored for a DAO gun which would have only one single trigger. S&W, Sig, Ruger and Beretta (and I suppose Glock falls into this category) and the firearms transition went smoother, especially for older cops who found the DAO trigger pull very familar with their old revolvers. Indeed, in some cases, shooting scores actually went up.
You have to remember that most cops are not firearms enthusiasts and the gun is just another tool of the trade. Not that there aren't shooters out there. Look at Mas Ayoob, Jim Cirillo, John Pride to name a few. The non-gun bug cop will not spend as much time practicing and mastering the DA/SA trigger like you folks out there in cyberland.
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