Whoa! Help me correct some major flinching!

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DanP

New member
Took my brand new Sig P239 (first semi-auto I own) and shot 150 rounds during lunch... very very poor shooting!

My comfortable revolver stance (something close to a mod weaver) didn't work, and I kept fumbling trying to adjust everything from feet to knees to upper body to elbows to grip.

Plus I caught myself anticipating / flinching quite a bit! :mad:

Don't know why, this is a "gentle" gun, very little drama to it particularly with basic 9mm range ammo.

Finally an extreme stance (strong arm almost flat across chest, weak arm almost completely bent at elbow) made it a little better, but it took all my concentration to keep my eyes on the front sight and not flinch.

Wondering if the flinch was a byproduct of not being comfortably in a stance to begin with.

So there is another active thread on stances, but does anyone have a good reference that includes pictures?

In addition to dry firing (is this OK on a Sig, BTW?), what else do you think would help here? (I'm ok in the ear protection department).

Thanks!

Forgot to add: on average I was off 2 or 3" mostly betwen the 6 and 8 o'clock positions.

But not consistently enough to blame it on the sights...;)
 
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croyance

New member
Get snap caps if you are going to dry fire. This will save wear on your firing pins.
Don't dry fire with real ammo around. You could accidentally load live ammo.
Check and recheck that you have no live ammo around and you loaded a snap cap.

I use the same stance for revolvers and semi-automatics. I am not convinced that this is the cause of the flinching.

It might be the movement of the slide towards you that causes the flinch. Revolvers have more powerful ammo than semi-autos, but lack this movement. Maybe this new experienve is throwing you off.

Try practice with an airgun or .22 LR semi-auto. The lesser recoil may help.

Were any of your revolvers snubbies? The SIG 239 is small, with a relatively high bore-axis. If you had big, recoil absorbing revolvers you may be feeling more recoil now than you were then.

Sorry, no pictures. Look for books on concealed carry, or shooting basics. They sometimes show these things.
 
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Frohickey

New member
Dryfire is fine. Can't hurt the gun. I suggest picking up a few snapcaps and randomly intersperse these into multiple magazines, then shuffle the magazines and shoot each one through in single action.
The first thing to know is that you are doing it, and to be very very conscious about correcting it. Also, you might want to always keep your finger on the trigger, even after the recoil/cycling of the slide. Never separate the finger from the trigger. When you need to reset the trigger, just let go enough to reset the trigger, but keep your finger touching it.
 
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Dave R

New member
Shoot a .22 pistol for a while. That helps me a lot. Or switch to a rifle, or anything else.

Concentrate when you shoot the bigger caliber. I find that when I'm really focused on a good trigger squeeze, it helps eliminate flinch.

If you find yourself flinching, don't keep shooting that gun at this session! You don't want to reinforce the flinch. If you keep a shooting session going with a flinch, you'll be training yourself to flinch.
 
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Redlg155

New member
Get yourself a good .22 autoloader and get back to the basics again. Learn to master the .22 and then get yourself back on track with the larger caliber weapon. Dry firing is fine and good for practicing trigger control, but in my opinion it isn't a good enough substitute for getting some good range time. There is no replacement for sending rounds downrange, even if they are only .22's.

Once you go back to your larger caliber weapon, take your time and get back into shooting comforably. Focus on your target and trigger squeeze and ignore the muzzle blast and recoil. 150 rounds of 9mm is still a good amount of rounds to shoot. Back off a bit to perhaps a box each outing until you are comfortable shooting more.

Strage as it may sound, sometimes something as easy as adding a pair of ear plugs under your shooting muffs can cure the problem by helping you ignore the noise. Also, if you don't already, get a good pair of shooting gloves. I use padded weightlifting gloves and they help tremendously.

Good Shooting
RED
 
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graystar

New member
Here's something that helped me...

You might want to give this a try. Helped me quite a bit.

When I shoot I make a conscience effort to hold the sights on target until I can feel the pressure of the trigger against the backstop.

My dime-store psychoanalyst explanation of what is happening is that I've change the focus of my anticipation; away from a loud boom and toward the feeling of pressure on my finger. Of course, by the time the trigger reaches the backstop the round is gone.

This helped improve my bullseye scores, which are shot with one hand. I don't know how well it works for self-defense targeting.
 
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DanP

New member
Thanks for the good advice.

I am sure I have lots to learn and improve by going with a 22, which is in my plans.

But as an example 2 days ago I fired, among other things, 50 rounds of full .357magnum out of my 3" SP101, and last week was using a CZ 97 - those are more dramatic rounds than 9mm in the SP239...

That is why I find it so disconcerting to get this results with this particular gun. Maybe I just need to get more sleep and try again with a better disposition.

Besides safe dry-firing with a snap cap, is it then in fact possible to use snap caps in a magazine mixed in with ammo?

And interesting aspect about "reinforcing the flinch"!
 
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DanP

New member
Graystar, that sounds like a good concentration point.

Hey, here is another thought (unrelated to the flinching):

I remember seeing a device a while back along the lines of a bullet-shaped laser light, the idea being that one would chamber it and use it to align sights (I think).

Wonder if this would help me detect if I'm having a general perception/dimensional problem under certain conditions?
 
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Kalvan

New member
Dry fire, using a .22, holding the trigger back until you realign the sights, etc. are all good advice. Some old fashioned "ball and dummy" would be good as well. If you have to do it alone, the technique of using several magazines and loading a varying number of snap caps into them randomly is about your only choice. Better would be to get someone to help. Have them take the gun after each shot and you turn away, then they mess with the gun and tap you on the shoulder and you turn back, take the gun and fire. It's either loaded or not, and it should be empty much more often than loaded. Try to do this for a total of say 300 rounds, maybe broken up between a couple of sessions. You should get at least 1000 trigger pulls out of the deal. Your 6-8 o'clock reading is classic "flinch" (i.e., you know when the gun is going off, and you subconsciously are pushing down on the gun to fight the recoil when it does). Another possible problem is immediately releasing the trigger. Try taking the empty gun and pulling the trigger all the way through but releasing it immediately when it goes click; it usually drives the muzzle down. When you are doing dry-fire, try holding the trigger back for a "one one-thousand" count before you release it. One other possibility I see with both Glocks and DA semi-autos in SA mode is failure to "prep the trigger". If the hammer is cocked there is a lot of slack in the trigger. You have to take up the slack, and then squeeze. I've seen people, even experienced shooters, have a problem from pulling hard at the beginning of the stroke and when they hit the "link" (the point where there is actually resistence) they will pull the muzzle down.

Good luck with it!
 
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Waitone

New member
Two suggestions:
1>Interspersing snap caps with live ammo is effective in showing you have problem. Usually one per stack is sufficient.
2>I like long range shooting to wear down a flinch. By long range I mean outdoors in the multiple 10's of yards. Its particularly effective when shooting in public. Self-embarrasement is a great motivator.
 
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DanP

New member
Quick update: Finally managed to take the Sig out for a second time.

Shot another 125 rounds today, well rested and much better prepared thanks to all your help.

Same range, same ammo, etc.

Far from perfect but much much better!:)

More relaxed, able to focus on what I was doing, feel I got to a point where now practice will be of benefit.

Thanks folks for making TFL such a fantastic resource!!

P.s.: did try to save a couple of bucks and tried to use a brand of ammo called "Wolf"... jammed the slide and the magazine inside the gun before I could even fire the first shot! That was awkward!

Took that thing back right away!
 
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Hal

New member
Took my brand new Sig P239 (first semi-auto I own) and shot 150 rounds during lunch... very very poor shooting!
Click to expand...
Been there, done that,,,,yep,,,same results. More a case of the "trying to stuff an afternoon of shooting into a half hour" than a recoil caused flinch. One thing I found that helped is to use the MOST expensive premium ammo for short time sessions instead of using cheaper stuff. This way, your limited by ammo supply instead of time. Sounds like you worked it out pretty well though.
 
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bowhnter

New member
Snap caps are expensive. I would load (or have someone else load mags with a different # of rounds each time. Just use control and well aimed shots. You won't know when the gun will go 'click'
 
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Archie

New member
Another technique...

is to concentrate on the front sight blade.

Do some slow fire. Deliberate, careful, (maybe one handed) bullseye target shooting. Forget the double taps and bursts. One shot at a time.

Really focus (just like you should) on the front sight. Talk to yourself about it.
When the pistol fires, you should see a bit of flash from the muzzle and the case fly out of the chamber.

Yes, you will see the casing being ejected if you are concentrating.

On a clear day outdoors, you can see the bullets going downrange at 25 and 50 yards.
 
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