Who is the 2nd best firearms designer?

[griz]

Why the second best? Because John Browning has to win any fair contest for best, enduring designs, different types of weapons, prolific, etc. With that stipulation, who is the next best?
I am voting for Paul Mauser. 100 years after the 98, it's still hard to come up with changes to the design that would universally be considered improvements. That is a good design.
Feel free to point out the ones I forgot to add, my history is imperfect. For that matter, feel free to take me to task for including someone who you wouldn't call a designer.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Yep, second vote for Mauser.

Another solid contender for second might be John Pedersen.

 

[LonWilson]

I think Gaston Glock didn't design the guns themselves, but he hired some really good experts.

I say Glock pistols are the "second best designed", even though I think it's even better than the 1911. That's my opinion, though.

 

[USMCsilver]

Apples to oranges; Ford vs. Chevy

Everyone has their first favorite, second favorite, etc. My favorite may be Daisy while yours is H&K.

IMHO, there is only one way to look at this and that is to look at track records set besides sales records. Whoever sells the most with the most satisfied customers becomes the winner in my book, and down the line it goes.

There are some small exceptions to this of course with custom built shooters, but all in all, I think that my opinion is self explanatory.

If you are happy with it, and it falls under your favorite, I guess, technically, then it is the "2nd best firearm designer".

 

[griz]

I think I tend to agree with you USMCsilver. It's hard to argue with quantity when you are talking about which design has had the biggest effect. I picked Mr. Mauser because most every bolt action since then has borrowed, sometimes totally, from his. My next choice would have been Mr. K because the AK is the epitome of the assult rifle, even today.
I sort of wish there was a "rate them" feature on the polls, I would have put Colt near the top too.

 

[jimmy]

He may or may not be second best, but I'd add FN's Dieudonne Saive to the list of candidates. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe he completed the design of the BHP and saw it into production after Browning died. Plus, he designed the SAFN and FAL, not to mention the later version of the FN/Browning .25.

 

[BigG]

The only valid improvements to the Mauser 98 action was altering the bolt handle and safety so a low overbore scope could be mounted. All other "improvements" have been to cheapen the design to produce, even to the point of reducing the safety and reliability, imho.

Oh yeah, the original Mauser barleycorn sights suck big time, anything would be an improvement over that!

I would say John Browning would have to take the top 3 or 4 slots of 10 as he designed all types of firearms, MGs, pistols, rifles of all types, shotguns of several types. He never did build a bolt gun which makes me wonder did he scoff at the low tech of it or did he think Mauser had built the very best? My guess is, he scoffed.

About fifth on the list would be Colt for being smart enough to get Browning's and Stoner's patents, 6th Pedersen, 7th Garand, 8th Stoner, 9th Mauser, 10th Kalashnikov, yada yada.

 

[Tamara]

About fifth on the list would be Colt for being smart enough to get Browning's and Stoner's patents

S. Colt was kinda dead by then...

 

[Johnny Guest]

Excellent topic, griz!

I am frankly in a quandry on this one. I am taking your question in the most literal way: Not clever merchandiser, or production engineer, or popularizer of a given type firearm.

Ruger took existing designs and refined them and made them affordable and produced many excellent and successful arms. But pure, original DESIGN? Probably not.

Richard Gatling and Sir Hiram Maxim both produced milestone weapons, but only one each. Other rapid fire guns were in development when they introduced theirs.

Mikhail Kalashnikov sure did design a strong, dependable, and popular personal machine carbine. But he followed others' designs, mainly.

I am tempted to say John Garand, but, really, there were other semi-auto battle rifles which COULD have done the job in WW-II and Korea. Mel Johnson's rifle comes to mind.

There WERE other bolt action designs in development when Paul Mauser did his brilliant work on the turn bolt rifle.

Eugene Stoner's genius had to do with materials and manufacturing processes, and refinements on already-pioneered machinegun designs.

I voted for Colt, because the practical, simple, strong repeating sidearm allowed for opening of the American West, and many other wildernesses as well.

I'm slightly surprised that Horace Smith and his partner, Wesson, are not offered, not for the excellent revolvers (outgrowths of the Colt designs) but for the origins of Oliver Winchester's later develpopments of the lever-action repeaters.

Just the observations of one enthusiast.

Best,
Johnny

 

[UltimaThule]

Mannlicher

No, I'm not talking about a full length rifle stock

Ferdinand Ritter von Mannlicher, Austrian firearms designer, may acutally have the world record when it comes to the number of designs. The clip loading magazine design later used by Garand, for example, was first introduced by Mannlicher in the 1880s.

I think I would vote for Ferdinand and John Moses to share 1st place in this contest.

 

[griz]

but for the origins of Oliver Winchester's later develpopments of the lever-action repeaters

I was under the impression that Mr. Browning did most (or at least a lot of) the work on the winchester lever actions. But as I said, there is a lot of history I don't know.
For instance, I just learned that Mannlicher designed the en-bloc clip. Thanks UT

 

[C.R.Sam]

Out of the womb of Smith n Wesson sprang the Volcanic. Which begat the Henry, which in turn begat the Winchester lever action line. Then the Winchester line was infused with the genius of John M. Browning and the world was forever changed.

Jummy right bout the BHP. JMB submitted prototypes and patent applications. Dieudonne Saive altered the design and got it into production.

Sam

 

[JohnKSa]

Delete one from M. Kalishnikov and give it to Mauser. I didn't see Mauser on the poll for some reason when I voted.

Mauser is definite for second. He's the only other person on the list who innovated in a big way and not just on one or two designs...

Kalishnikov and Maxim tied for third.

The rest just refined existing ideas or made breakthroughs in terms of materials or manufacturing.

 

[BigG]

Tamara, true Samuel Colt was long dead but the organization he created lived on which means he did, in a way.

Colt (including the revolver Sam made) built some of the milestone weapons of history. The Texas Paterson, the Walker, the Dragoons, yada yada, the SAA, the Colt machine gun, the Browning MGs, the Thompson SMGs, the 45 Automatic pistols, the AR15 rifle. There is no arms maker in my recollection that has a lineup of history making winners like that.

True, Kalashnikov, Mauser, and some of the others have one big hit but Colt had about 130 years worth of em!

The comment about S&W is right on also. The two mechanics built the Volcanic pistols and rifles which Oliver F. Winchester developed with B. Tyler Henry into the Henry, the 1866, and the 1873 - truly "the gun that won the west." JMB's contributions started with the Winchester single shot and the Model 1886 high powered lever guns and went clear up to 1911 when Win would not purchase the Automatic 5 shotgun on a royalty basis.

 

[Erik]

Did Colt actually design most of the classics attributed to his company?

Seems that I remember that he was a great businessman who brough together other minds a la Glock.

Or perhaps I'm rememebring it incorrectly.

 

[Crimper-D]

Baron Fredrich von Mannlicher

Probably the most prolific firearms designer ever. John Moses Browning may have had more designs that were actually produced in volume, but the Austrian actually producedover 150 different types of weapons. Browning usually produced prototupes that needed further engineering to get into production, Mannlicher actually produced, manufactured and tested 150 types of weapons,most of his own design.

 

[BigG]

Crimper - True, Mannlicher produced a lot of designs but if you look at the drawings they are quite poorly designed, fragile weapons. That's why Mannlicher today is only remembered for the rifle stock!

Browning's designs were built to last. The Automatic 5 shotgun, the Colt/Browning automatic pistols, the Superposed, the Winchesters, the Machine Guns including the Big 50 M2 and the Browning Machine Rifle or BAR. Not only that but JMB designed a lot of cartridges, also. All of the common automatic pistol cartridges, 25, 32, 380, 38, 45 were all his. The 50 caliber MG round was also JMB's.

Colt was an entrepreneur with few equals. If Glock can stay around for 150 years and have a track record of innovation like Colt, then he will be equivalent to the immortal Sam'l Colt, imho.

 

[jar]

I have to go with Maxim. Without his input it's unlikely we would have seen the designs that came out of FN, Walther, Colt, Radom and the other ground breakers.

 

[JohnKSa]

Colt (including the revolver Sam made) built some of the milestone weapons of history. The Texas Paterson, the Walker, the Dragoons, yada yada, the SAA, the Colt machine gun, the Browning MGs, the Thompson SMGs, the 45 Automatic pistols, the AR15 rifle. There is no arms maker in my recollection that has a lineup of history making winners like that.

Browning MG--designed by John Browning
Thompson--designed by Gen. Thompson.
45 Automatic pistols--designed by John Browning.
AR-15 Rifle--designed by Eugene Stoner.

None of these people ever worked for Colt (the man OR the company)

Other than his revolver (which was, at least in a sense, a refinement of existing designs) and subsequent refinements to his initial design, Colt doesn't have any other notable designs to his name.

For the most part, Colt (the company) has made its money selling designs bought from other companies and from designers who are not employed by Colt.

Contrast that with Ruger or Mauser for example.

 

[ReverendHobo]

I voted for Mauser, but I am missing Tyler Henry on that list. He might be close, too.