Who has actually had to use this stopping power
- Thread starter Dr. D
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Mike Spight
New member
DrD:
The only stopping power I've had occasion to use was almost 30 years ago in the RVN. I used the biggest things available...normally .50 M2, 7.62mm M60 and 5.56mm M16s. They all worked just fine, as did 40mm grenades out of M79s. Actually, air strikes and artillery worked best in terms of stopping power...BTW I did not have occasion then (nor since) to shoot another human being with a handgun.
With few exceptions, the majority of the posters here have not had occasion to use a handgun in defense of their (or others) lives. As such, we rely on the experience of others who have and the test reports available in various technical journals...on line, I recommend www.firearmstactical.com If you're interested in "stopping power" theory, it has links to and references to what is the very latest in test data and reports of actual shooting results.
Hope this helps you out.
Regards, Mike
BTW...have gone back and corrected the address for firearmstactical. Crash ID'd the problem and offered the fix...thanks again!
[This message has been edited by Mike Spight (edited July 27, 1999).]
The only stopping power I've had occasion to use was almost 30 years ago in the RVN. I used the biggest things available...normally .50 M2, 7.62mm M60 and 5.56mm M16s. They all worked just fine, as did 40mm grenades out of M79s. Actually, air strikes and artillery worked best in terms of stopping power...BTW I did not have occasion then (nor since) to shoot another human being with a handgun.
With few exceptions, the majority of the posters here have not had occasion to use a handgun in defense of their (or others) lives. As such, we rely on the experience of others who have and the test reports available in various technical journals...on line, I recommend www.firearmstactical.com If you're interested in "stopping power" theory, it has links to and references to what is the very latest in test data and reports of actual shooting results.
Hope this helps you out.
Regards, Mike
BTW...have gone back and corrected the address for firearmstactical. Crash ID'd the problem and offered the fix...thanks again!
[This message has been edited by Mike Spight (edited July 27, 1999).]
Mike Spight
New member
Futo: Thanks bud, you're right. I can't figure it out, but I tried the link from my original post and got the same site you did. Yet, it works from my favorites listing or if I type it in in the address block...obviously I screwed the pooch somehow on this one...I just don't know how//Break//DrD: Please disregard that link...just TYPE the address into your browser if you're interested in accessing firearmstactical.com.
Regards,
Mike
Regards,
Mike
Mike Spight
New member
Crash: That did the trick...thanks much. It's good to have a dbl E on the board!
Mike.
Mike.
BrokenArrow
New member
So many times I've lost count! Some big bruisers too! Been bounced off the walls, thrown over/under tables, swept the floor with my face, but in the end, I always cuffed and stuffed and went home OK.
Stops were with hands, feet, knees, elbows, head, baton, ash trays, ketchup bottles, sugar dispensers, clipboards ...
Oh, you must mean with guns!?
I hate those noisy things!
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Stops were with hands, feet, knees, elbows, head, baton, ash trays, ketchup bottles, sugar dispensers, clipboards ...
Oh, you must mean with guns!?
I hate those noisy things!
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>>>>---->
Jeff Thomas
New member
Dr. D, from my perspective, your question is rather like asking if one really needs a good fire extinguisher or a good insurance company. You and I would probably agree that we want a dependable fire extinguisher that will put out the fires we would most likely experience in our situation, and we want insurance companies that can perform when we have a claim.
I don't expect to ever use a firearm in self defense, but that would be my most critical use for any of these tools. If that occasion ever occurs, I want to be able to shoot with precision, the firearm must not jam or malfunction, and the ammunition should give me the best chance of quickly stopping the problem. I'm willing to pay a bit extra for good quality self defense ammunition, as long as it really makes some difference. And, then we get into the 'scientific' studies, arguments and so on.
I'm a neophyte regarding most of these arguments, but it is logical to me that I should care about the reality of different ammo.
Now if you are really questioning whether anyone ever uses a firearm for defense, then I would respectfully suggest you check the research of Dr. John Lott and Dr. Gary Kleck for starters. Numbers are all over the board (including various threads on TFL), and estimates run from 500K to 2.5mm times per year for civilian use of firearms in self defense. In most of those cases the weapon is never fired. In cases where firearms have been fired, there are various studies of the results. And, clearly LEO's provide plenty of examples where people need to use firearms against BG's.
If you examine the Firearms Tactical site I think you'll also notice a professional association called the International Wound Ballistics Association - http://www.iwba.com/ . Sounds macabre, but there is certainly a legitimate need to logically understand what various firearms and ammunition can accomplish during legal and moral use - such as enforcing law and defending life against coercion.
Sorry ... long-winded as usual.
Regards from AZ.
[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited July 28, 1999).]
I don't expect to ever use a firearm in self defense, but that would be my most critical use for any of these tools. If that occasion ever occurs, I want to be able to shoot with precision, the firearm must not jam or malfunction, and the ammunition should give me the best chance of quickly stopping the problem. I'm willing to pay a bit extra for good quality self defense ammunition, as long as it really makes some difference. And, then we get into the 'scientific' studies, arguments and so on.
I'm a neophyte regarding most of these arguments, but it is logical to me that I should care about the reality of different ammo.
Now if you are really questioning whether anyone ever uses a firearm for defense, then I would respectfully suggest you check the research of Dr. John Lott and Dr. Gary Kleck for starters. Numbers are all over the board (including various threads on TFL), and estimates run from 500K to 2.5mm times per year for civilian use of firearms in self defense. In most of those cases the weapon is never fired. In cases where firearms have been fired, there are various studies of the results. And, clearly LEO's provide plenty of examples where people need to use firearms against BG's.
If you examine the Firearms Tactical site I think you'll also notice a professional association called the International Wound Ballistics Association - http://www.iwba.com/ . Sounds macabre, but there is certainly a legitimate need to logically understand what various firearms and ammunition can accomplish during legal and moral use - such as enforcing law and defending life against coercion.
Sorry ... long-winded as usual.
Regards from AZ.
[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited July 28, 1999).]
sharpsrifle
New member
Dr D. Yes, I've had to use a handgun to save my own life. I did not have to shoot. One could argue, I suppose, that any ammo (or none) would have worked. But I certainly didn't think that I would have been just as well off with a less efficient bullet, at the time. Regards Sharps
Rob Pincus
New member
The only time I have actually had to fire firearms (or wanted to) at living creatures, they have been 4 legged.
That said, Dr. D., all due respect, your question [has been answered].
I realize that you are new here, so, I advise you to look around and read the huge body of imformation contained at TFL before asking such a contemptuous question.
Its not like people just sit in their rooms and guess how certain bullets might perform. Huge bodies of documentation exist in books, magazine articles, and on the internet dealing with actual shooting and experimental shooting results.
[This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited July 30, 1999).]
That said, Dr. D., all due respect, your question [has been answered].
I realize that you are new here, so, I advise you to look around and read the huge body of imformation contained at TFL before asking such a contemptuous question.
Its not like people just sit in their rooms and guess how certain bullets might perform. Huge bodies of documentation exist in books, magazine articles, and on the internet dealing with actual shooting and experimental shooting results.
[This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited July 30, 1999).]
Dr. D, while there are any number of TFL members thatmay have had to use a firearm in defense of their life, it is not something that they wish to discuss.
Therefore I would suggest the question and possible answers are none of your business.
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Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
"If there be treachery, let there be jehad!"
Therefore I would suggest the question and possible answers are none of your business.
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Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
"If there be treachery, let there be jehad!"
Agree with Jim V.
Tom
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Don't Tread on Me
Why 10mm beats .45 ACP . . .
www.greent.com/40Page/ammo/10/10mm-advoc.htm
Tom
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Don't Tread on Me
Why 10mm beats .45 ACP . . .
www.greent.com/40Page/ammo/10/10mm-advoc.htm
The actual question here was not "have you used a firearm in self defense" rather it meant Have you actually seen the effects of the stopping power and evaluated the stopping power" This doesnt mean on a human, but other ways.
Some of us are hunters and know what the best rounds are for stopping power some of us are just talking of the top of our heads and know nothing.
even the magazines are constantly reversing their positions on what is the best caliber, cartridge, gun, ect. they are all efficient and work for their purpose.
I have been a ccw holder since 1984 and have never had the gun out of the holster except on the range. I dont have that short a fuse. This was only a discussion topic. if you dont want to answer then dont. it wasnt an attempt to pry into someones personal life.
Seems there are some short fuses here.
Some of us are hunters and know what the best rounds are for stopping power some of us are just talking of the top of our heads and know nothing.
even the magazines are constantly reversing their positions on what is the best caliber, cartridge, gun, ect. they are all efficient and work for their purpose.
I have been a ccw holder since 1984 and have never had the gun out of the holster except on the range. I dont have that short a fuse. This was only a discussion topic. if you dont want to answer then dont. it wasnt an attempt to pry into someones personal life.
Seems there are some short fuses here.
Mike Spight
New member
DrD:
Not really...as Jim V said, its really a very personal question. FWIW/JMHO, with maybe one or two exceptions, the gun rags are the absolute worst place to go for good info on "stopping power", etc. That's why I and others recommend firearmstactical.com and the IWBA's site. There you can access information from laboratory tests and what has been seen as the result of autopsy reports, reports of shootings, etc.
Mike
Not really...as Jim V said, its really a very personal question. FWIW/JMHO, with maybe one or two exceptions, the gun rags are the absolute worst place to go for good info on "stopping power", etc. That's why I and others recommend firearmstactical.com and the IWBA's site. There you can access information from laboratory tests and what has been seen as the result of autopsy reports, reports of shootings, etc.
Mike
sharpsrifle
New member
DrD. Excuse me, but your question was, "Has anyone actually had to use a weapon in self defense"... I answered your question. If you intended to ask some question, other than the one you posted, then you should post it.
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Regards, Sharps.
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Regards, Sharps.
MO is you guys are totally out of line in jumping Dr. D. His question was legitamite, probably not meant to be "contempuous", if if it's none of his business, then you don't have to answer him. If he's a newbie then maybe he just flat doesn't know the answer (why else would he ask?). MO is there is no such thing as a "stupid" question. I think you guys are reading way too much into his post. Perhaps his question was a little ambiguous (now clarified). If his question was "Is this stuff all academic, or do people BGs really get shot?" then the answer is "yes they do, and there's volumes written on it - if you want to know more, be more specific." Hmm. Fine. Asked & Answered. Nothing's stupid though, and if you feel like sharing, share. If do don't, remain silent or tell Dr. D that you'd rather not discuss it thanks very much. What's with you guys? Rob, I know you're gone now, but when you get back I hope you modify your thought a little, because this seems out of character for you.
[This message has been edited by Futo Inu (edited July 29, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by Futo Inu (edited July 29, 1999).]
Dr D, I wouldn't normally get involved in this discussion, except that since you are new (someone said) I wouldn't want you to think that some of the replies you have gotten are typical of this forum. Don't know if this is just a bad day for some or what. However, without regard to the question you asked, some of the responses were unnecessarily rude. I accept the fact that most who have had to use weapons in battle or self defense would rather not discuss it, but that could have been conveyed in a civil manner. Don't go away, this forum up to this point has not deteriorated to the point of some of the others. Most of us are here to exchange ideas, help one another, and just enjoy communicating with others with like interest. Sorry for your experience here today. Jerry
While I was busy being all self-righteously high and mighty, I succeeded in placing both of my feet squarely in my mouth, steel-toed boots and all.
I have deleted this post for offensively personal content.
My apologies to anyone who was upset.
-boing
[This message has been edited by boing (edited July 30, 1999).]
I have deleted this post for offensively personal content.
My apologies to anyone who was upset.
-boing
[This message has been edited by boing (edited July 30, 1999).]
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