Which might be more effective 9mm@1200fps or .45@850fps?

NuclearGlock

Moderator
Here are the choices:
A 9mm bullet, 124gr at 1200fps from 4" barreled Glock 19.
A .45cal bullet, 185gr at 850fps from 3.5" barreled Springfield Ultra Compact.

Which has better terminal effectiveness?

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Give me Liberty, or Give me Foodstamps!
 

Mike Baugh

New member
The most effective round will be the one you are most accurate with . My personal choice between the 2 weapons/loads mentioned would be the G19 with the 124gr ammo . If you hit the BG where you are supposed to either one will work . There are so many variables that influence bullet performance , clothing , BG on drugs , determination of the BG to do you harm [a big one] , that I feel better knowing that if 2 center mass wont cut it that I can place the extras in the head . Good luck , Mike...
 

WalterGAII

Moderator
How about a .45, 165gr. +p Cor-Bon or Triton at 1250 fps??? Sounds just a tad better than that peashooter!!!

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Shoot to kill; they'll stop when they're dead!
 

NuclearGlock

Moderator
Do you think I could get that much velocity from a 3.5 inch barrel? If so, then my decision is made.

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Give me Liberty, or Give me Foodstamps!
 

nyeti

New member
Based on my experience in real shootings, (not gunwriters fantasy world)...the heaviest hollow-point bullet in any caliber driven at a moderate velocity has proven itself to work in every shooting that I have been in or investigated.
 

George Hill

Staff Alumnus
It's not What its Where.
Most quality factory loads will do just fine.
As most want to be close to the FBI rated "Near 12 inches" of penetration.
You find loads close to these depths in both light & fast loads and Heavy & Slow loads.
Heavy Bullets at Moderate Velocity is good.
Heavy Bullets ar Fast Velocity is Better - in my opinion.
The shooting statistics are always questionable. They fail to factor in variables - Range, barrel length of weapon, Velocity, shot placement and vector, Range, Clothing, barriers etc.
Magsafe 45 has a penetration depth of 9.7 inches on Bal-Gel that was covered with 2 layers tshirt matterial, 1 layer Flannel Shirt, and one layer of denim. That depth was achieved out of a 4 inch barrel 1911 firing a Magsafe Agent round.
Similar gel test showed 230 grain Hydras reaching 12 and 185 grain +p Rems hitting 11.5 if I remember right.
This was a long time ago... and I dont have my notes with me... but I think thos ewere the results.

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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud
 

pluspinc

Moderator
When you get into trouble you never send someone to get you a smaller gun. Also 90+% of all shots fired in self defense miss so it doesn't matter much in most cases. IF you hit the target only 15% of shots are frontal. The caliber has little value compared to placement. In fact 40% of people shot in the heart will live. Even if you hit the heart and it stops the person may have up to a minute to make your life miserable.
Keep in mind the .22 kills more than all others combined. Primary reason is low recoil and pointability of such handguns thus allowing better placement.
We get so caught up in hardware we fail to stop and think that it doesn't matter much if we don't hit what we shoot at, and most don't. If we can drop some testosterone and replace it with the never ending effort to confront and improve our failings the caliber doesn't matter.
Very little about self defense has to do with bullets and guns. I just returned from working with some NYPD officers and they have used FMJ in their Glocks for almost a decade and with hundreds of shootings they have not found the FMJ to be a problem worth noting. Their only reason for changing to the hollowpoint is a cocern over penetration and possible ricochet, but they even admit the change to hollowpoints will have much impact on the guns effect in the steet. Gun rags love to ignore this actual street use of FMJ in the 9mm and how well it performed.
 

lucky085

New member
The highest caliber gun you can shoot comfortably with is the answer. If you're subconsciencely worried about recoil, it will affect your accuracy. Each person is different. Grandma with weak hands may not want to shoot a 45 or 357 magnum, but instead a 32 or 38. Shooting +P will add to recoil, so that must be taken into consideration.
 

NuclearGlock

Moderator
They both seem to recoil about the same, which is neither onerous nor unmanageable. I can shoot either one with equal accuracy.
So, which has better terminal effectiveness?
Are they equal, perhaps?
 

Ulfilas

New member
And the endless "this caliber is better than that caliber" debate rages on...

Shot placement is paramount. Everything else is details.

During the Cold War, the weapon of choice for Russian Assassins was not a .45, nor a 9mm, but a .22 (you could suppress them better, control them better, not as messy, and lethality was sufficient with shot placement)

Someone here on TFL who had a Vietnam Vet friend who commented that he saw both the 9 and the 45 in action, effecting the same results.

jth
 

Chris Orndorff

New member
An addendum to some excellent comments already made here:

Velocity doesn't "stop".
Energy doesn't "stop".

#1 Key? Shot placement!
#2 Key? A well-designed bullet driven at the velocity it was designed to operate at. Some are better than others in this regard, and it's your responsibility to find the one that suits your particular needs.
 

Bryan Whited

New member
According to the Father of Modern Pistolcraft (Jeff Cooper) the answer is 45!!
The 9mm might do the job but the 45 will do the job.
 

Chris Orndorff

New member
A .45 will do the job only if it's placed where it will disrupt a vital structure. Period. No one argues that a .45 makes a bigger hole (a good thing), but it ain't magic.
 

Futo Inu

New member
I sympathize with Nuclear Glock. I find it odd that he had to spell out in detail "all other factors being equal", because I think his question already implied that. Yeah, yeah, we know, shot placement, and everything else is details. He's asking about those details. Why can't people answer the question without diverting to a tangential topic? The answer to your question, IMO, is "unknown". The jury is still out, and the debates are endless. The purportedly scientific "studies" have been called into question as flawed (or even fraudulent), so most question their reliabity. Agree with Walter - I personally carry Triton Quik Shok +P .45acp JHPs, with 230 ball in the mags below round 2 for enhanced reliability and pene if 2 quik shoks can't do the job. I imagine out of a 3.5" bbl, you'd be lucky to get 1,150 (100 fps less) due to bragadocious ad vels, and shorter bbl length (ad vels based are based on 5" bbls). The answer may also be "depends on the target" - large thick individuals may, on average, go down more quickly with the heavier 45 due to better pene, but the average man MAY go down quicker with 9mm at faster vels due to fragmentation/expansion - I just have never seen any kind of reliable comprehensive scientific studies comparing the two, that stand up to peer review. In the grand scheme, as you may have inferred, the difference (is in all liklihood) neglibible.

My personal reason for leaning toward the .45 is this: assuming no expansion from either, and assuming equal penetration, the volume of the permanent wound cavity is "much" greater due to the frontal area of the .45 (i.e. bigger hole). Yeah I know, this may not be valid due to suspect assumptions, but I like it anyway.

[This message has been edited by Futo Inu (edited December 30, 1999).]
 

Joe Portale

New member
This is fun, I'll chime in to stir the pot some more.

As a handgun trainer, I often get asked this question in various forms. The practical answer is to use the biggest pistol that you are comfortable with and KNOW how to use it.
My wife is 5' 2" and weighs 120 pounds, she can shoot my 1911 well, but the gun is simply too big for her handle confortably. She is a crack shot with a S&W 66 using 158 grain .38 special +P. She is also accurate with several 9mm pistols that we own.

The three things that impact (pun intended) stopping a BG are:

* placement
* power
* penetration

I prefer the .45 over the 9mm. A 230 grain hardball well placed, not even in a terminal area and barring drugs or a manic fit, will stop a 200 pound man in his tracks. A 9mm will not have the same effect, it simply doesn't have the same kinetic energy.

Another interesting thing to chew on is the concept of diminishing returns. A FMJ bullet traveling at very fast or ultra fast velocities, may be so quick that the perp may not even realize/feel that he was hit.

My vote goes for the heavy bulet at moderate speeds to keep the kentic energy at the wound site and no blowing out the other side. Like stated above, a .45 throwing a 230 grain bullet at 900 fps is my personal choice, for 9mm I carry a 147 grain bullet at about the same speed.

But, if you are accurate and can put the round where it needs to go, then **any** caliber will kill. Oh excuse me....killing a bad guy is not PC..."To stop an attack" use what every caliber you are accurate and comfortable with....

Remember, the Isreali's favorite round for low profile termination (assisinations) was/is(?) a .22 mag.



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Joe Portale
Sonoran Sidewinder
Tucson, Arizona territory
 

lucky085

New member
Larger bullets MAY not be better than smaller ones, if the latter expands better upon impact because it is traveling at a higer velocity, and creates a larger wound channel. We are then back to the chance of expansion at varying velocities arguments.

In the heat of a possible gun battle, however, I would think that reliability and accesibility of the weapon are the most important factors, coupled with a cool head.
 

Dogger

New member
I suggest we provide both to the Russians and the rebels in Chechnya and conduct a scientific longitudinal study to find out!

:D

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"Why, I'd rather suffer through a proctologist's exam than pack a Kimber!"
Gen. Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
Manassas, VA
1862



[This message has been edited by Dogger (edited December 30, 1999).]
 
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