Which gun has dropped more bad guys. . .

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shafter

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I was having a debate the other night and my positition was that the Smith and Wesson Model 10/Colt Official Police has dropped more bad guys since the creation of the original design than the 1911.

My opinion is that the revolver has been around since the late 1800's and has seen service in WW1, WW2, Korea, and Vietnam. It has also served in great numbers with law enforcement over a long stretch of time. This isn't even considering civilian use.

I know the 1911 has been around for quite some time and has also served in the above wars but its police use was much less than that of the Smith or Colt. I think that the police/civilian use is probably what tips the scales in favor of the revolver because realistically how many people are killed by handguns in a war?

What do you guys think?

P.S. I wasn't sure if this belonged here or in the general section so I won't be offended if it gets moved.
 
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gyvel

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Obtaining all the empirical evidence necessary to find the answer would be an extremely daunting task.

But I would say that there have been far less people killed by policemen armed with Model 10s than with a 1911. As far as I know from anecdotal evidence, handguns were used frequently in trench warfare in WWI and in the Pacific in WWII to kill an enemy.
 
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hoytinak

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I'll with gyvel on this and say the 1911 would be my guess.

Although, even in today's wars (Iraq and Afghanistan), I have seen several S&W models 10s used against our troops and found many in caches that we destroyed (I know, it was a shame), even seen some Model 10s back in Kosovo in '99 but through 6 deployments I've never seen one 1911.
 
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Double Naught Spy

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Which gun has dropped more bad guys. . .
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I was having a debate the other night and my positition was that the Smith and Wesson Model 10/Colt Official Police has dropped more bad guys since the creation of the original design than the 1911.
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What vague query backed up with bizarrely worded and biased choices.

"Dropped more bad guys. . ." What does "dropped" mean? Is this killed, incapacitated, or voluntarily surrendered as a result of being shot?

On choices of which gun, you give two choices. The first is "Smith and Wesson Model 10/Colt Official Police" and the second is the 1911. You think it is the revolver, but the revolver choice isn't even a single gun. It is two different guns made by two different companies and designed some three decades apart.

To further obfuscate the query, you offer that you think it is the revolver because "realistically how many people are killed by handguns in a war?"

Okay, is your query about dropping people or killing people? Lots of folks died from handgun wounds in the late 1800s and early-to-mid 1900s primarily as a matter of not having access to appropriate medical access, expiring anywhere between hours and weeks after being shot.

Also, what does the "bad guys" distinction mean? Do you think that there is a different ability to survive being shot between being a good guy and being a bad guy?
 
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kraigwy

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If you're talking about pure numbers of people killed with a pistol, regardless of why, I'd have to say the Russian Nagant 7.62X38R.

Simply because of all the purges in under communism, the Nagant was favored during these purges. Millions have been killed during Stalin's rein.
 
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Webleymkv

New member
If I had to pick a single handgun type, I'd probably go with the S&W M&P and its descendants simply because it's been in use by so many different organizations for so long (the M&P/M10 has been in continuous production longer than any other handgun). I'd be willing to wager that almost every U.S. police agency has issued or authorized some sort of S&W K-Frame at one point or another as have several foreign police agencies. The S&W K-Frame has also been used not only by our own military (the S&W M15 was the standard-issue handgun of the USAF until 1985), but also by those of British Commonwealth Nations.

Now, if I had to pick a single cartridge, I'd probably go with .22 Long Rifle simply because of its nearly universal availability, affordability, and popularity.
 
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jmr40

New member
If you are talking US LE weapons then I'd agree. The 1911 has almost no record in LE. It was carried in the military from 1911-1985, but has probaby accounted for dropping very few bad guys.

Various 9mm's have probably accounted for dropping more bad guys and good guys than all other rounds combined. Remember 38 revolvers and 45 pistols are pretty rare in the rest of the world which went to 9mm over 100 years ago.
 
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44 AMP

Staff
I'm going with the Lee Enfield 303 as the overall weapon.
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I don't recall many .303 British handguns, and the op was asking about a choice between handguns...;)

As to how many people are killed with a handgun in war? Certainly considerably less than any thing else use, but quite a few, nonetheless. There are lots of individual examples in history, from Sgt York to the tunnel rats in Vietnam. There is even one of a parachuting pilot taking out the Zero that was trying to strafe him in his chute, with his 1911! And for each recorded instance there are probably hundreds (or more) times when the handgun was used that didn't make the history books.

Police are trained to capture, rather than kill, unlike the soldier. And while they do kill a number of criminals, I have seen statistics that say that there are actually more bad guys killed each year by armed citizens than by the police. And no, don't ask me to produce such, I don't collect the data. It's out there, if you want to look.

If you want to find the handgun caliber that has killed more "bad guys" than any, other, then I believe you will be looking at some kind of 9mm, simply because it has been used in greater numbers, by more nations militaries and police than any other single one.

I don't believe there is really any way to give a solid answer to you question, because, even if you could collect all the data available over the past century (a truly daunting task, in itself), there is likely just as many shootings (or more) that didn't get into available data.

Nothing that doesn't work stays in service for a century or more, so really, what's the point?
 
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EdInk

New member
I would wager on the 1911 because of it's years of military service. The model 10 has a long service record as a police sidearm. Typically/Fortunately, police officers do not fire their weapons too frequently at actual people.
 
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KyJim

New member
I think lots of you folks can't read. He was asking SW Model 10/Cot Official Police versus 1911. Nobody ever brought up any of those furin' guns. :)

My bet is on the 1911 because, as others have mentioned, it has been used in wars. It was used quite a bit in WW I because of the close quarters when fighting in trenches.
 
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C0untZer0

Moderator
Everyone is wrong

You're forgetting how many bad guys drop other bad guys and get dropped by other bad guys.

So the answer is Davis !
 
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SIGSHR

New member
I would distinguish between LEO use and combat. Also depends on how you define "bad guys". And "combat". In the Soviet Union the Nagant revolver was the method of execution, and how many perished in Stalin's purges. But that was not "combat". Nor were those slain "bad guys".
 
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