Where to draw the line?

If you had the power to: ban(not even military could posses) ; restrict(military / law enforcement only); or permit(civillian with paperwork allowed) all weapons
which weapons get placed into what category and why? Just curious to ask in such a diverse group of shooters. Think out of the box. :)
 
Hey pass the fissionable material!

So is it ok to have a nuke. Or where do you draw the line at what an "arm" is! With my logic an arm would include anything that could be used as an offensive or defensive weopon that a person can carry on or about their person. From a rock, to a bow and arrow, to a psg1 sniper rifle. Excluding any explosives. Why pick on explosives some would ask? The thought of an "accidental discharge" of a firearm scares the hell out of sheeple, imagine the grief when your stockpile of m203 grenades has an "acidental explosion" and takes two or three of the houses along your street with your home :confused: whoops!! That will get you kicked out of the neighborhood watch even if you founded it!!!
 

FallenPhoenix

New member
I really wish this question didn't even have to be considered, that people in general weren't as blindly ignorant as they seem to be and there weren't those that would act irresponsibly. But since that's impossible I believe some weapons have to be banned or restricted. I'll keep it to small arms since I don't think a tank or a howitzer is really an issue for debate.

Fully automatic weapons should be restricted, but only to the degree that a concealed handgun is, I don't think people should be allowed to carry fully automatic weapons, there are people who would not think of the possibility of collateral damage from the use of a full auto weapon.

Ammunition designed specifically to defeat body armor should not be available to the public IMO. Once again, some people do not fully think through the possibility of injuring an innocent accidently as a result of their choice of ammunition.

Magazine size, type of action, size of the round, size of the cartridge, none of that should factor into what is allowed and not allowed IMO. I also don't think any small arms should be completely banned, though I think some need to be restricted.

Feel free to comment on or disagree with anything I've written. I promise I'll have a mature response or I just won't post at all :D
 

Danindetroit

New member
Look around, at the # of gas statons, you have trucks hauling in my state up to 9000 gallons of gas, 13,000 gallons of ethanol, hazmat trucks filled with explosives, oxidizers,etc. how far do you live from a railroad track, they have all sorts of acids, gases, onboard, under the streets you have multi 4" hi pressure natural gas lines, especially if a large plant is by your house. The gasoline in refineries is also shipped in underground lines, I think 4 to 5 years ago, 1 broke, and the cost of gas spiked, just as the change from winter to summer blend fuel was going on. I guess the poor man's james bond, and the anarchist's cookbook, was not good reading material for a 12 year old, unbelievably these instuctions were readily available way before the the World Wide Web. I think in chicago one of these hi pressure gas mains caught on fire sending flames over 200 feet high next to a high rise senior community.

As for "conventional weapons" they probably cost too much, and are too big, who is going to rob a 7-11 with a hand grenade, and risk destroying the money. If they are crazy, they can already do enough damage,1 acetylene tank with the valve left open long enough, I think the term is fuel air explosion.
 
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Ohio Annie

New member
I think it was the "Framers" intent for families to be able to have whatever the current military rifle was for defense. It is true they couldn't foresee everything that has developed over the last 200+ years but the Swiss system seems prudent.

The current crime problem also was not foreseen but the problem of criminals having too much firepower happens anyway, much more often than law-abiding folk having too much. The situation we have now is that the likelihood of our government getting out of control and relieving us of our pesky freedoms is greater now that we have grown complacent and comfortable.

I would opt for a BAR in my closet. :)
 

Oldphart

New member
Why draw a line?

As others have already pointed out, weapons have changed since the Founders wrote the Constitution. Partially because of that and the lack of a workable method for "modernizing" that document, we tend to think of those men as somewhat ignorant and backwards. Nothing could be further from the truth. While they couldn't forsee computers and nuclear weapons, they could see (probably better than we do now) the history of mankind and his stormy relationships. They knew that, regardless of the weapon, there would always be some who would misuse it and that his neighbors would have to do something to correct and/or contain him.
That idea worked pretty well for almost ninety years. Then we decided-- collectively-- that some of our neighbors were being too unruly and we needed to go to war to "correct" them. That those neighbors only wanted to be left alone was lost in the rhetoric of the day. The years of war and retribution that followed gave birth to the idea that we no longer needed to take care of ourselves since the government could do it so much better. We hired police forces rather than take our own valuable time to catch and prosecute outlaws. We hired planners to tell us where and when we could build on our own property. Then we hired tax assessors to extract money from ourselves to pay those planners, police officers and the myriads of other government agents we "needed" to make our lives easier.
Now, with Government the single, largest employer in this country, it is no longer our employee but our master. Government brings us into the world, teaches us in school, hires us to utilize the skills it has taught us, pensions us off when we are too old to work and provides a plot of ground to bury us in. Is there any surprise that Government would want to protect itself from those occasional people who somehow manage to wrench their wheels from ruts that countless others have traveled and strike out on a new and different path of their own?
People who think for thmselves are the greatest enemies of big Government. Gun owners tend to think for themselves--, some more than others. But there are still those who, even though they own guns and say many of the things freethinking gunowners say, occasionally revert to their public school taught thinking. They still believe that government is here to serve them from the time they are born until the day they die. They seem to believe that, in order for Government to properly take care of them, it must limit what they can do, lest they hurt themselves. So they don't mind when they have to get a permit to do this or have their fingerprints on file to do that. After all, they reason, Government has to keep us safe.
There will always be outlaws and Government should not and cannot control them all. Life is not safe! Indeed, nowadays Government is often the outlaw, but being so big, there is nothing the people can do to correct it, let alone contain it. But those who own guns could cause minor problems, so Government finds reasons to limit who can own them. Usually, the foundations for those reasons are laid in the public schools when we are most vulnerable to statist propaganda. It happened when we didn't even know it was being done to us. Now we happily line up to ask for permission to protect ourselves from the outlaws we pay Government to control. It shows up when we feel we aren't smart enough to decide what is a prudent instrument for our own defense.
Should we own automatic weapons? If we want to. Should we own field artillary pieces? If we can afford them and if we can justify them to our wives. Nuclear weapons? That question always comes up and it's kind of ridiculous. I doubt if even Bill Gates could afford one.
To ask where a line should be drawn is to shoot ourselves in the foot. The real question we should be asking is how to erase the lines that have already been drawn.
 

Handy

Moderator
While not volunteering to ban anything, the question is interesting.

I think one way the problem could be viewed is by considering that we all assert that the 2nd Amendment guarantees an individual right, so maybe only individual small arms should be considered kosher for civil use. In other words, crew served weapons, like a mortor or heavy machine gun would be a no-no. You could say that the limit must be what an average adult could carry and deploy, including a reasonable ammo load. So, an LMG is fine.

You could also put a restriction on explosives by saying that the user must be able to direct and control his fire, so an area weapon is out, as are explosive shells and grenades. Think of it as a liability issue, like drunk driving. But belt fed machine guns down to derringers should be legal and encouraged.

I think LE should be restricted (or not) the same as civilians. If the task exceeds their weapon capabilities (like facing down a tank), then we're dealing with a form of terrorist activity and you can bring in the army.

Like I said, I'd rather not be the one tasked with imposing limits, but limiting ourselves to directable, individual weapons seems like it better matches the intent and imaginations of the founding fathers and the amendment they wrote.
 
Thanx 4 the rpls

Well Tamara, I agree 100 percent but the likelyhood of that is so small as to not even consider it in the realm of possibility :( . So back to reality for both of us. After reading your posts I have come to a new conclusion. What we are basically talking is about the limit of civilian deadly force capabilities! Period! So what it boils down to is yes there is a difference between ,"arms". duh Does one person need a nuke to defend himself and or others? Of course not! And if it gets to the point that you do.... the proverbial " has hit the fan" and it won't help!!!!! :eek: Now I am not a scholar and don't pretend to be one on the 'net but I know that If a light belt-fed (saw) or a medium belt-fed(m60) won't stop it I don't wanna tangle with it!!!!!!!!!! I will agree with the above statement of what a single man/woman can carry (non explosive) Pemits for those with a genuwine interst in explosives(you better be cousin to flipper for all the hoops you'll jump through :D )
 

Geoff Timm

New member
too many choices opined, "So is it ok to have a nuke. Or where do you draw the line at what an "arm" is! "

Let's Face Facts Folks. Bill Gates and Warren Buffet have more important things to do with their money than getting together and building a nuclear weapon. Assuming they liquidate all their holdings.

The cost of many weapons keeps them limited to Governments.

Geoff
Who likes an injection of reality. :cool:
 
Geoff Timm

Well reality check noted. :rolleyes: The nuke was obviously an attempt at hyperbole, showing the extreme end of the scale of " mans arms", but you conveniently forgot to answer the question :) . I didn't really think anyone would bite on the whole nuke thing without making a joke :). No offense intended.
 

Hal

New member
Unless you want corporations to BECOME governments, I think I'd want this regulated.
Just as a side note - one of the ways to legally own a full auto in Ohio is to have the gun owned by a corporation.
When I lived in a western suburb of Cleveland some years back I looked into buying a full auto. I was told getting a sign off by law enforcement was next to impossible so the only route open was to incorporate myself and have the gun owned by the corporation.

Laws that restrict anything inanimate are rediculous and ineffective. All they do is open the door for abuse, create "loopholes" for the *priveledged* and hamper otherwise honest people or worse yet turn an otherwise honest person into a criminal.
 

Tamara

Moderator Emeritus
Handy,

Like I said, I'd rather not be the one tasked with imposing limits, but limiting ourselves to directable, individual weapons seems like it better matches the intent and imaginations of the founding fathers and the amendment they wrote.

The Founding Fathers also authorized Congress to issue Letters of Marque and Reprisal. If their intent was only to allow ownership of non-crew-served weapons, those letters would have to have been issued to guys in one-man dinghies armed with muskets. :eek:
 

Mike F.

New member
The idea of limiting and/or equalizing what LEO's are allowed to carry with their civilian counterparts intrigues me. With the possible exception of fully automatic weapons (more so for tactical reasons than anything else) I don't see why the civilian popluce shouldn't have access to pretty much anything the cops do.

As far as ammunition specifically designed to defeat body armor not being legal, it was my understanding that pretty much most hunting rifles are capable of doing that with standard ammuntion. I'm not sure I'd have a problem with law abiding citizens having access to the ammo.

M.
 
Mike F.

I like your statement about "eqalizing power", but why no full auto for civies? Do the police and military posses powers far beyond those of mortal men? Basically could you explaiin what are the "tactical reasons" you would limit civie full auto but allow armor piercing ammo? I stick by weapons that can be individually carried and deployed. No explosives because even if you train Explosives aren't for everybody, Guns R!! :D The military has bunkers and all sort of places to safely store these material, and train to deal with all the possibilities of explosive ordinance(unexploded shell, occasional unexpected explosion!). If a civie could do as good a job at disposal of live unexploded ordinance and keep the explosives in a 'bunker" of sorts, then they could have explosives with MUCH regulation. Bottom line. A gun is a gun is a gun. If if shoots a lot of bullets when you pull the trigger(machinegun, shot gun; never did see a difference... another thread?) or if it shoots one(all civie guns). Once you cross the line into explosives we need to have some regs. Anything that launches an explosive projectile or simply is an explosive would be restricted, but allowed with a permit an proper hoop jumpin(note flipper comment in above post) :D And before you ask: sure you can keep your cannon and a non exploding howitzer!lol :cool:
 

Tamara

Moderator Emeritus
No explosives because even if you train Explosives aren't for everybody, Guns R!!

Hmmm... I've got about thirteen pounds of smokeless, three pounds of black powder/pyrodex, a quart or two of lighter fluid, 13 gallons of petrol, a gallon or so of kerosene, and a humungous propane tank just sitting around my domicile right now. What to do? What to do? :confused:
 

Mike F.

New member
The primary tactical reason I see no need for fully automatic weapons is that the main purpose/function of said weapons is suppression fire. Supression fire needs some type of fire team/squad type organiztion to be truly effective. The other reason is that fully automatic weapons have been illegal since the '30's if my memory serves me correctly. Also factor in the prohibitive cost of ammo if you are burning through 1000+ rounds every couple of minutes and I just don't see the practical value.

I'm assuming we'd have to draw the line somewhere and giving up the potential ability to own fully automatic weapons is probably the concession I'd make for never having to see a repeat of the 1994 "Assualt Weapons" Ban, frivolous lawsuits and mandatory manufacturing requirements such as safety locks.

I agree wholeheartedly with with the explosives issue.

Edit: As far as the armor piercing ammo goes, wouldn't a 300 win mag or .50 rifle do a pretty bang up job of defeating even hard armor plate inserts? In the rare event that the military or law enforcement agencies were ever used unconstitutionally against the populace I'd like to have the ability to effectively combat them. A far fetched scenario but not completely implausible.

M.
 
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