When is shooting predatory LE legally justifiable?

[Rachen]

The thread about the Philly shooting, the story about the cop-rape of a drunken woman in NYC, and finally, we all have heard about the forced entry-gun confiscation and to top it off, the execution of unarmed citizens by mercenaries in New Orleans in 2005 after Katrina.

You are legally justified to shoot down a criminal if he/she poses an immediate threat to you and anyone you love.

What if predatory law enforcement acts in ways that is clearly illegal and poses a dangerous and deadly threat to you or your family? For example, during Katrina or times of crisis when they start preying on the vulnerable. When is it legally justifiable to respond with deadly force, with or without a firearm to defend those you care about?

Has this topic been covered before, or am I pointing out the white elephant in the room?

 

[Jamas]

It makes no difference if its an leo. If deadly force is justified then it is justified. You would probably just have to pray everyone else can tell it was justified.

 

[hardworker]

You're going to have a hell of a time proving it was justifiable, even if it was. I think this is more of a case by case thing and not nearly as cut and dry as shooting another non-LE person.

 

[THEZACHARIAS]

Lots and lots of variables in that one. In a legal sense officers are liable for their actions like everyone else, but that doesn't always mean the local judge(s) are willing to follow through. I want to believe that the courts would understand the difference between a good and bad cop, but you never know. Either way, there is sure to be a protracted legal battle.

That being said, risking jail time is is more palatable than burying a friend or loved one.

 

[Spats McGee]

To complicate matters further, take a look at your local laws on resisting arrest. I don't know about other jurisdictions, but under Arkansas law, resisting arrest is a crime, even if the arrest itself is illegal.

(a)(1) A person commits the offense of resisting arrest if he or she knowingly resists a person known by him or her to be a law enforcement officer effecting an arrest.
(2) As used in this subsection, “resists” means using or threatening to use physical force or any other means that creates a substantial risk of physical injury to any person.
(3) It is no defense to a prosecution under this subsection that the law enforcement officer lacked legal authority to make the arrest if the law enforcement officer was acting under color of his or her official authority.
(4) Resisting arrest is a Class A misdemeanor.

Ark. Code Ann. § 5-54-103 (West)

 

[Jim March]

There are serious questions as to whether the various state laws (and most states have 'em) on resisting arrest are constitutional. There's a US Supreme Court decision regarding resisting criminally false arrest that's on point.

But let's ignore that, and let's say that you can't resist arrest.

Can you resist assault?

Hell yes you can.

When cops flat-out attack people, that's not an arrest. When they grab cameras out of their hands, that's also an assault - trust me, if I walk up to you and rip your property out of your hands, I *will* be charged with assault, among other things.

We have the right to resist assault.

Now, if that resistence causes a cop to get mad and reach for a gun...simple assault just bumped up to assault with a deadly weapon.

And then there's only one question left: who's faster?

We have a LOT of video of cops grabbing cameras from people. Mark my words, one day one of those videos of the sort that shows up on Carlos Miller's site is going to end with a shot-up cop. It's just inevitable.

 

[Yung.gunr]

I am all about respecting LEOs. But..... when they do not respect me, my family or my rights that is a different story. You had better believe that I would use deadly force if needs be. Hopefully it never gets to that and hopefully one never tries to arrest me illegally. Not saying I would resist, just saying I am undecided on that one.

 

[Edward429451]

With all due respect to the uniform, one must be able to see past the uniform to the man and see if he poses a threat. Don't be distracted by the uniform.

 

[glockcompact]

If deadly force is justified and you have no way out it doesn't matter to me what clothes the badguy is wearing.
Proving it in a court of law may be more difficult but what other options did you have. NONE! You, atleast hopefully, lived to tell your side of the story.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

the execution of unarmed citizens by mercenaries in New Orleans in 2005 after Katrina.

Without getting into the other stories, the part quoted above is news to me. Do you have some credible sources for that? Is it possible you have confused several illegal shootings by NOPD during Katrina with the presence of private security hired by various property owners after Katrina?

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

States have different laws about self-defense and use of force to prevent grievous bodily harm. You need to stick to that.

Cop bash and rant at your own risk. The OP was a touch over the top.

Fighting a confiscation of property with lethal force in an ambiguous law enforcement situation (like the Katrina confiscation) sounds exciting but is it wise? It was handled later. Preventing the shooting of innocents, that's different.

 

[Blackshirts]

There may be a situation where shooting a cop is justifiable, but keep in mind you have now drawn your weapon and fired on a police officer. If he is not alone and his partner did not see what transpired to result in you firing he will react as if he is defending himself against someone firing at police officers. You just might not make it to court. Not saying don't shoot. Just saying.

 

[RickB]

Considering how rare hot prowls are, I have often wondered if it's more likely that the cops (park rangers, animal control, EPA, ATF, etc.) will kick my door down at 2:00AM, mistaking me or my house for the object of their "investigation", than for some druggy looking for cash or easily fenced property? I mean, I see a half-dozen ninjas coming down the hall, do I assume they're cops, assume I'm not the guy they think they're looking for, so dive to the ground and surrender? Or, do I assume that anyone who kicks my door down at 2:00AM and is advancing aggressively toward me needs shooting? I suspect I'm going to "play it safe" and choose the latter. I rarely concern myself with "rogue cops", but the militarization of U.S. law enforcement, even at the local level, is pretty scary. It seems like every organization that has law enforcement powers has a SWAT team, and the only way to justify their existence is to use them.

 

[GE-Minigun]

….I see a half-dozen ninjas coming down the hall…Or, do I assume that anyone who kicks my door down at 2:00AM and is advancing aggressively toward me needs shooting?...

One of the reasons I’m happy to live on 37 acres with my closest neighbor 1.5 miles away…no kids and a wife that can shoot as good as me. The fact I have an SOCOM II at bedside is nice also. Needless to say I have no concern for over penetration…on or to anything.

 

[Dragon55]

Jittery question............

When is shooting predatory LE legally justifiable?



Man I tell you what..... I don't think I would take a predator's life for stealing something out of the barn. Cop or not.

Now, if he is busting down the front door with no warning he will be shot.

As far as legality.......... ??????

1. Carried by 6
2. Judged by 12

Hmmmmmmmmmmm....

 

[Dragon55]

....sorry for double post But

pred·a·to·ry
 
 /ˈprɛdəˌtɔri, -ˌtoʊri/ Show Spelled[pred-uh-tawr-ee, -tohr-ee] Show IPA
–adjective
1.
Zoology . preying upon other organisms for food.
2.
of, pertaining to, or characterized by plunder, pillage, robbery, or exploitation: predatory tactics.
3.
engaging in or living by these activities: predatory bands of brigands.
EXPAND
4.
excessive or exploitive in amount or cost, as out of greed or to take advantage of consumers or patrons: predatory pricing.
5.
acting with or possessed by overbearing, rapacious, or selfish motives: He was cornered at the party by a predatory reporter.


Predatory in the sense I'm getting from the OP is basically a bullying thief.

If the bullying thief happens to be a cop I think the only thing I would shoot him with is a camera. Hey... stuff is just stuff. I can get more stuff.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

the execution of unarmed citizens by mercenaries in New Orleans in 2005 after Katrina.

Without getting into the other stories, the part quoted above is news to me. Do you have some credible sources for that? Is it possible you have confused several illegal shootings by NOPD during Katrina with the presence of private security hired by various property owners after Katrina?

It was well-documented at the time. LEOs executed and wounded several of a group who were trying to cross a bridge from one area to another. IIRC, some of the officers were only recently brought to trial -- but I don't know if there was a decision, or if the trial is on-going.

http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2010/07/prosecutors_will_seek_detentio.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/13/katrina-bridge-shootings_n_644988.html

http://articles.cnn.com/2010-02-24/...olice-officers-new-orleans-police?_s=PM:CRIME

 

[Technosavant]

As far as legality.......... ??????

1. Carried by 6
2. Judged by 12

Yes, but keep in mind that in many jurisdictions, if you are judged by 12 as to have murdered a police officer, it will very likely end up with you being carried by 6.

The vast, VAST, VAST majority of the time, the police officers with whom we interact are not causing bodily harm to innocent people who were just minding their own business. Sure, it's happened, but it isn't a common thing. Even calling it rare is a stretch; it's extremely rare.

In those incidents where someone is innocent and has been abused/assaulted/killed by the police, there is often some kind of ambiguity (of course, it's easy to introduce ambiguity after the fact if there's only one story being told and your buddies write the report).

Generally, I would recommend that a person, if assaulted by a police officer, submit and be as nonthreatening as possible. The simple fact is that even a justified act of self defense against a police officer will very likely be prosecuted and you won't likely come out of it well at all. If you get your rear kicked, well, that's the sort of thing that will need to be redressed going forward. If you have a murderous officer after you, you have very few choices, and every last one of them is bad.

 

[Dragon55]

Well.... to put my statement back into context....

Now, if he is busting down the front door with no warning he will be shot.

As far as legality.......... ??????

1. Carried by 6
2. Judged by 12



I stand by that statement and will be happy to deal with the consequences of defending myself against someone breaking down the front door unannounced... cop or no. At least I have a shot at arguing about it 10 or 20 years.

 

[SRH78]

This would be a really, really bad situation. Even if you are 100% justified, you are probably screwed anyways. I will say though, that if your life is legitimately threatened, concerns of legality go out the window and the primary concern is survival.