When a shotgun gets too expensive

[robertsig]

I had a question about all the über expensive shotguns in the $20K+ range.

At what point does a shotgun NOT get any better in quality? By quality, I mean fit (NOT finish), accuracy, materials and hand fitting?

I know at one point you get into the extensive ornamentation and engraving, which is what I assume places some shotguns in the $100,000+ range like the H&H, Beretta high-end stuff, Purdey, Fabbri, etc. But at what point does the shotgun not get any better made? $10,000? $20,000?

Other than high-end wood and engraving, is there that much more attention given to the construction of a $10,000 SxS vs a $100,000 SxS?

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The question is more theoretical since I'll never have money for either, but I wanted to know if one was wealthy and bought a $20,000 shotgun, would he be skimping on quality vs a $100,000 version? (And by quality, I do mean fit & finish, as well as materials. )

 

[oneounceload]

As shown in the video I posted about H&H, attention to detail like that is found in the better grades of guns. Even the Spanish guns can have that attention to detail, and they cost much less than the Fabbri or H&H - about5-10K, so I would say once you get above about 12K or so, you start to get into the realm of the high grade wood and "designer" engraving.

Remember, high-end target guns like the Kolar, Ljutic, and Seitz can run about 12-15K, without custom engraving

 

[robertsig]

Kolar,,, perfect example.

Are their $4000 barrels really that much better or accurate? I mean, the point of diminishing returns would have happened thousands of dollars ago, unless they hand drill every one of them? So no CNC machines?

What is the end result? .2 better MOA? .5? (Sorry, not even sure if shotgun accuracy is measured in MOA. I'm such a n00b).

I have to believe you are paying for the name at this point.

 

[BigJimP]

Its not just the machining of the parts....its also the handfitting and tuning of the parts...but I agree with OneOunce ...when you get much over $ 10K - $12K part of what you're paying for above that is some hand engraving and some hand picked wood on the stock and forend.

A well machined ...and well fit barrel to the receiver ...and probably more importantly the quality of the internal compents ( trigger, etc ) and how well they are tuned to the specs you set when you have a gun like that built - takes a craftsman. Companies like Kolar, Kreighoff etc ...when you order a gun, it will be made to the exact stock dimensions you want, the trigger pulls at exactly what you want, etc.../ you can't do that with a $3K B gun ....when the B gun comes out of the box ...it is, what it is ....and its a damn fine shotgun.

You see it in firearms like 1911's too ....there are very inexpensive 1911's ( Rock Island and others with prices around $ 350) ...and there are the upper end of the mfg's like Wilson Combat and Ed Brown with prices in
the $ 3K and up areas..... its not just the parts, although parts are a part of it, its the hand fitting - that takes time and money. When you order a semi-custom 1911 from companies like Wilson Combat - you can specify specific parts, and a specific trigger pull, etc ...same kind of a thing as in shotguns from companies like Kolar and Krieghoff.

But to your point ....compare a $3K Browning Citori XS Skeet -- to a $15K Kolar or Krieghoff ...is the K gun 5 times the gun that the Browning is ...no, its not ( at least in my opinion ). Is the K gun twice the gun, the Citori XS Skeet is ...yes probably ...( and I own 5 of the Citori XS Skeet models / and none of the K guns ) ...but the K guns are better guns -- in my opinion ( and worth the money / if its what you want ).

Are the K guns too much ...you have to be the judge ...if you're a buyer in that market .../ but I don't think they're having any trouble selling new guns...and neither are companies like Browning and Beretta in the $3K - $5K price range ......

 

[lambertsteeth]

Fit and and accuracy can be done inexpensively.

Precious materials and hand finishing ARE expensively.

Accuracy is far more the shooter, than the gun.

It appears to me that about 10 grand, it becomes an arrogant display of wealth, rather than a pursuit of shooting better.

Don't get me wrong, 20 grand guns are usually beautiful works of art.

For most shooters they are out of reach. (including myself)

An experienced shooter can shoot an uber-expensive, work of art gun, just as well as a well fitting pump gun.

 

[oneounceload]

10K target guns are currently the result of the dollar/euro mismatch. A few years ago they were closer to 7K - still a lot, BUT when ONE target can mean the difference between first and last place, especially at the Olympics, you go with the best.

Perazzis are million round guns, as are Kolars and Kreighoffs - Savage, Baikal, Huglus are not

Fabbris are very expensive, but one of their guns is made from titanium - very hard to machine. They also vacuum remelt their metals - an expensive process. When you only make a few dozen guns per year, the costs of the millions in CNC equipment and the other processes gets past on to their customers. Their guns are also made to go the distance, not just look good

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_arc_remelting)

 

[robertsig]

Companies like Kolar, Kreighoff etc ...when you order a gun, it will be made to the exact stock dimensions you want, the trigger pulls at exactly what you want, etc.../ you can't do that with a $3K B gun ....when the B gun comes out of the box ...it is, what it is ....and its a damn fine shotgun.

You see it in firearms like 1911's too ....there are very inexpensive 1911's ( Rock Island and others with prices around $ 350) ...and there are the upper end of the mfg's like Wilson Combat and Ed Brown

True, but I have a non-custom Dan Wesson PM7-S that I would put up against any high-end 1911. The difference is, as you put it, I couldn't specify the options. Fortunately their choices were very good.

So is there a company making high-end shotguns that you can't customize? Meaning they come off the factory line with all the bells & whistles, and perhaps some niceties as well? (engraving, nice wood, etc). Maybe the "Kimber" of shotguns (lets all assume for the sake of argument that Kimber is a good brand).

But since there are no 'factory' $2500 shotgun companies that I can find competing with $15,000 'custom' shotgun companies, I must assume that it indeed is very hard to make them, and hand fitting is the only way it can be done effectively.

Fit and and accuracy can be done inexpensively.
Precious materials and hand finishing ARE expensively.
Accuracy is far more the shooter, than the gun.
It appears to me that about 10 grand, it becomes an arrogant display of wealth, rather than a pursuit of shooting better.

I just looked up the Perazzi shotguns and they look as beautiful as guns costing 5x as much, and they have engraving too. So how can they do it? Would you say brands above Perazzi (like H&H) fall into the extravagant and well past the point of diminishing returns?

 

[trg42wraglefragle]

I've often wondered the same thing, but I can't see how a $2000 gun is worse than a $20,000 one.

Yes theres a huge difference when it comes to rifles and accuracy but with a shot gun I don't get it.

Can some explain how an expensive one is better than a cheaper one if the cheaper one goes bang ever time and the sights on it are good and has interchangeable choke tubes, because a really cannot grasp it.

 

[darkgael]

$

s theres a huge difference when it comes to rifles and accuracy but with a shot gun I don't get it.

I respectfully disagree with the huge difference part. One can buy an out of the box, non-custom, rifle from any number of manufacturers that will shoot one ragged hole groups. The $$$ guns are great for many reasons but the difference in result is small.

It appears to me that about 10 grand, it becomes an arrogant display of wealth, rather than a pursuit of shooting better.

Don't get me wrong, 20 grand guns are usually beautiful works of art.

For most shooters they are out of reach. (including myself)

An experienced shooter can shoot an uber-expensive, work of art gun, just as well as a well fitting pump gun.

Why is it that we often read that type of value judgement in discussions like this - that purchase of a very expensive shotgun is "an arrogant display of wealth"?
It may be so for some persons but that type of generalisation can never be accurate.

One of the reasons that the H&H and Purdey shotguns are as expensive as they are is that they are "bespoke" firearms. The concept is foreign to many of us - there is no "production line"....the guns are made piece by piece by hand. You can argue until you are blue in the face about the practical difference that makes but, subjectively, there is a great deal of satisfaction to be had from owning and using a handmade, precision, beautiful firearm; it is a satisfaction that has little or nothing to do with how the gun shoots compared to another (though one would expect it to shoot well).
Pete

 

[hopper810]

IMO it's just like anything else you buy what you like and can afford. Good reliable well made "things" can be bought every day for a reasonable price. If a person finds joy in spending xxxx amount on a shotgun or any other item it shouldn't matter to anyone else.

Like any other items in your life buy what "YOU" like and enjoy and quit worrying about what others do.YMMV

 

[KRIEGHOFF]

Like the time a guy ask why the one of the shooters was shooting a $95,000.00 trap gun.

His answer was "Because I can!"

 

[PJR]

Why is it that we often read that type of value judgement in discussions like this - that purchase of a very expensive shotgun is "an arrogant display of wealth"?

There are two reasons. The first is jealousy expressed by people who will never have the means to afford one. The second is ignorance expressed by people who have no comprehension of the factors that go into a fine quality gun.

For the people who don't understand no explanation is sufficient. For the people who do understand no explanation is required.

With any product (shotgun, car, watch, suit of clothes, etc.) you pay for the cost of the materials and the quality of the workmanship that goes into the product. The higher the quality of either, the higher the cost of the product.

Also built into the cost of the guns is marketing them to a very discerning and demanding clientele. Anyone who has visited Audley House in London or any of the H&H outlets around the world will know what this means.

 

[Dave McC]

...an arrogant display of wealth"....

Could be, but not has to be.

My friends vary wildly in income and shotguns choice. One shoots a well worn Benelli, another a Model 12 with over 200K rounds behind it in his hands. And lots of my friends have 870s, 500s and such.

Others have Purdeys,Parkers, Perazzis and Piottis. Langs, LeFeverres and Lindners. Bakers, Bosis and Bosses.

I see little arrogance in their choices. One and all, fine people and the sort you'd be glad to share a blind or a walk through some cover with.

They also tend to like old whiskey and dogs, bamboo fly rods and boots from Bean and Schnee.

In a talk over some single malt one night, one of the above expressed the view that once you get past about the $3K threshold, it's more about cosmetics, pride of ownership and "Feel" than about effectiveness and efficiency. He opined that at that point, we become more the stewards of fine shotguns rather than just the owners.

I do not care one whit if the person shooting next to me is toting a Parker A1 Special or his/her grandad's old Noble pump.

I DO care if that person is safe, ethical and courteous, in that order....

 

[hogdogs]

I can miss as clean with a $10,000 gun as I can a hunert dollar NEF single...

Brent

 

[5whiskey]

When is a shotgun too expensive? You should be the judge of that. In my opinion, if i am paying more than a few hundred bucks it is not worth it. I will say that if custom engraving is your thing, drop the money if you like. If you expect better accuracy then you leave the threshold of diminishing returns around the 500 buck range. Much like many very good shooters have taken a ria or springield 1911 and shot better than their friends (who are competent marksmen) armed with wilson customs. Once you get past the point of accurate and functional, equipment will not add to your shooting ability. Accurate and functional can almost always be had at the lower end of the price scale. Just my opinion.

 

[BigJimP]

To use your analogy ....guns from Browning and Beretta are like Dan Wesson's guns ...they come out of the factories with some very nice guns ...but in general, you can't call up the factory and custom order - and have them make something custom for you within a specific model. If you want the gun customized in terms of the trigger pull - you'll have to find a competent gunsmith to take care of that for you.

I'm not saying Dan Wesson makes bad guns ...are they as good as Wilson Combat or Ed Brown's 1911's ...I would say no ...but you have to make that decision for yourself. You say yes ...I say no ....so we both voted with our dollars...and that's just fine with me / and we both have nice guns - that we like --- so its all good.

In my opinion --- the B guns are very good guns.

The top 4 shotguns in my opinion are Perazzi, Blaser, Kolar and Krieghoff....and I think any of them will make a gun to your specs / and for a price will do whatever you want done in terms of components ...and in wood upgrades ..and in engraving.

Are guns past the Perazzi $5K mark ...where the diminishing returns start ...I don't know ...( I still think its above the $ 10K - $12K price range like I said before ). Does Perazzi at $5K make a good gun - yes. Is it twice as good as a Browning or Beretta at $ 2,500 ...maybe ...you'll have to be the judge of that as well ...

I think all of this comes down to what you want to do. If you want a
$ 15,000 K gun ...but you think you should buy the $5K Perazzi instead...then you should do whatever you want. If you want a $1,000 Browning and think that everything else above that price is just gingerbread ..that's ok too. They'll all be good guns. At some point - yes, there is a diminishing return. Where it is for you ...or anyone else...will depend on what your budget is ....and what you want to do.

Picking a long term gun ...is mostly about how it "fits" you in terms of weight and stock dimensions ...and yes, there is some correlation between cost and quality ...

Most of the K guns I've had the priveledge to hold and shoot ...are damn fine guns...in terms of quality / and how they look. Do I want one ...no, not really ....but maybe for my 65th birthday ( who knows ) ....is an H&H or a Purdy on my list of things to buy ...no, not at all ( so to me, yes, they are past the point of diminishing returns) - but mostly they're just guns I don't want to own and shoot.

All of my Browning O/U's are perfectly solid guns ...and I'm happy every time I pick one up and go out to the gun club ...its not the gun that is holding back my scores...its my rebuilt shoulder, foot pain issues, eyesight, arthritis,. etc...( just part of being over 60 - and abusing my body over the years ) ...but no regrets / and I'm more than happy shooting a gun like a
$ 3,000 Citori XS Skeet, or even my old $ 500 Browning BPS ...or even once in a while my old bolt action Westerfield 16ga... and having some laughs and killing some targets...

What other guys do ....in terms of ordering a custom SXS or whatever ...its all good with me .../ just like the young guy buying a Rem 870 Express for his first shotgun ...is fine with me too.

Its just a personal opinion on where the point of diminishing returns is - in terms of price - which was what you asked / I don't know that there is a right or wrong answer.

Why do you ask ? Are you trying to justify the purchase of a $15,000 K gun ...or is it just an academic discussion of the point of diminishing returns in terms of cost ?

 

[vaskeet]

lets have some fun. you have $30,000.00 to buy a shotgun and a truck. person #1 buys a $1000.00 gun and a $29,000.00 truck. person # 2 buys a $10,000.00 krieghoff and a $20,000.00 truck. now ten years have passed. person #1 has a $800.00 gun and a $2500.00 truck. # 2 has a $12,000.00
krieghoff and a $2500.00 truck Plus ten years of shooting one of the best shotguns made. If they could both afford it who used their money better. If I had bought my Krieghoff 2 remingtons 3 brownings 3 berettas eariler I would have saved a lot of money. Randy

 

[oneounceload]

Can some explain how an expensive one is better than a cheaper one if the cheaper one goes bang ever time and the sights on it are good and has interchangeable choke tubes, because a really cannot grasp it.

IT is the key word - and to each it is completely different, but it has to do with fit, finish, attention to detail, and most importantly - balance and handling. Anyone who has ever handled a fine SxS and then a Stoeger or Savage or Browning knows what I mean - the first is like a wand in the hands, the others like swinging a sewer pipe. Getting barrels to balance perfectly to the customer's requirements, having the entire gun weight balanced the way the customer wants - those take enormous amounts of time and highly-skilled (and paid) labor.

 

[robertsig]

Why do you ask ? Are you trying to justify the purchase of a $15,000 K gun ...or is it just an academic discussion of the point of diminishing returns in terms of cost ?

Both of those actually. Well, I can't afford a $15K gun (not with staying married anyway), but I wanted something to shoot for, pun intended.

If a $10,000 is worthy to own, then that is something I can aspire to. If the discussion went "all shotguns below $50K are crap", then I would resolve myself to never owning a decent shotgun. That being said, I would love to get a nicely engraved shotgun for $5000. Will it be the same quality as a $15,000 gun? I don't know, hence the thread.

For 1911's, something like the Dan Wesson Valor is 95-98% of what a custom 1911 is at half the cost, provided you like the customization points they picked of course. I'm trying to find that high-value mark in a shotgun. For clarity, I define a "regular" value mark as a decent shotgun for the price, like maybe the Browning BPS or Remington Wingmaster. Then the point of diminishing returns goes down as you get higher until the next plateau. That is the level I'm interested in. Then above that, value goes out the window and you pay dearly for every incremental upgrade or engraving. I assume H&H, Purdy, Krieghoff and Perazzi are at that level. I don't know. If they are all hand made, then yes, value is not there. You are paying for a hand made gun.

So what is the best production or semi-custom made shotgun?

 

[PJR]

It's impossible to set a specific price at which diminishing returns occur. What does matter is that the purchaser understands why and what he is paying for.

The base model Perazzis and Krieghoffs are built in the same place by the same people as their very high end guns. Every model starts out the same. The differences come with engraving, better grades of wood and gold inlay. Go much beyond the base model of either gun and what you are paying for is adornment.

Beretta provides the best example of value and lack of value for money. The Beretta 687EELL is a very handsome shotgun with fancy wood, fine engraving and sideplates but strip the fancy stuff away and it is the same gun as the plain 687 that costs a lot less. In the same price range as the EELL you can also buy a Beretta DT10, not as fancy but a better gun than the 687.

I've owned Brownings, Berettas, a Krieghoff and am currently shooting Perazzis. The Brownings and Berettas were good guns. The Krieghoff and Perazzis are better guns. More durable, better regulated barrels, great trigger pulls and excellent handling. Were they twice as good as a Beretta? Probably not but I sure enjoyed shooting and owning them twice as much.