What's so hard...?

James K

Member In Memoriam
In a day when products made to dimensions in micro-meters are common, when this computer's hard drive has a MTBF rate that is astronomical, what is so hard about making a Model 1911 clone that works? Weird ammunition aside, this is an 89 year old design. Eighty-nine years, folks! How many mysteries can there be about a relatively crude piece of ironmongery with an 89-year old design? This gun was born in a day when cars were a novelty; when airplanes were a rumor; when a computer was a person with a mathematical bent; when cry cleaning was still in the future; when men wore derby hats and women wore long dresses and big hats. This is from the days of button hooks and bustles, of hansom cabs and high top shoes. And we can't duplicate it today without screwing it up? I am confused. Can someone enlighten me?

Jim
 

Grayfox

New member
I think the problem is that they are trying to make them too tight. It was designed to be a battlefield piece with loose tolorances to avoid jams caused by dirt and such. When you tighten 'em up they do get more accurate, but they also jam more.
JMB did it right. They should quit trying to fix it.
 

Mikey

New member
A tight 1911 will run just fine if it done right.

A sloppy Joe (as in G.I.) runs because it's generous with fit.

A full custom 1911 runs because it is hand fit, at a price.

The problem is the new "factory custom" guns. They ain't loose, but they ain't hand fit. It just doesnt seem to work that way.

Mikey
 
There's a tradeoff between a target gun and a combat gun. The GI weapon must be reliable since it's virtually his weapon of last defense. That's why the tolerances are looser on the GI gun.

Now, when we move to target guns, tight makes right for accuracy. But unlike the GI gun, they're prima donnas and want to be fed a special diet of ammo.

It's not so much that we can't make an 89 year old gun design work. Rather, it's what we want it to do.

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Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt
 

Futo Inu

New member
Very good question. Don't forget that the .45 acp round is an inherently jam-prone round, relatively speaking, for a couple of reasons. If the rim was rebated slightly, it would be much more inherently reliable.
 

RikWriter

New member
Nothing hard about it at all. I have never had a jam out of any of my Kimbers or out of any of the Colts I have owned.
 

Dr.Rob

Staff Alumnus
I agree... tighter tolerances are good in target guns but not in combat pistols.. it seems like most of the problems people have had with kimbers in the TIGHTNESS of the thing.. not its finish or craftsmanship.

I expect my guns to go BANG right out of the box with ball ammunition. If it won't feed a hyra-shock polish the ramp.. beyond that the 1991a1 is still the best "1911" on the market.. and hey its still a colt. (evn though the company is being run into the dirt by a scumbag.. sigh I'm still sentimental)

NORINCO 1911's are supposed to be SWEET too (as in its a GI Spec pistol)

Hope it helps,

Dr.Rob
 

zot

New member
why ? ??? because if we made something flawless we'd put ourselfs out of bussiness
fixing the crap we sell
 

JJR

New member
Please don't get me wrong, I've become a huge fan of 1911 types lately, but I think the fact that the 1911 design is 89 years old is itself an answer to the question.

The design has flaws. It was the greatest achievement in gun design at the turn of the century and remained so for decades but it was still not perfect (nothing in the gun world is yet). Over the century, designers have analyzed the 1911's quirks, idiosyncrasies, failings and other mojo and have improved upon them. They have added features and removed features, played with different caliber’s, made some things tighter and some things looser. The "refined" 1911 continues to progress in the form of Glocks, Berettas, Sigs, etc. Improvement means creating new things out of proven ideas (after all, your new car is really just a "refined" model A Ford).

I say enjoy the 1911 for what it is. Tinker with it, throw money at it and make it work. Though it's arguably not the best gun we have today, it is probably the best gun we've ever had. It's kinda like talking to your Grandfather... makes you appreciate where you came from.
 

stdalire

New member
Grayfox highlited the issue which to my mind is correct "It was designed to be a battlefield piece with loose tolorances to avoid jams caused by dirt and such. When you tighten 'em up they do get more accurate, but they also jam more".

Tune your gun to your own purpose. Or if you can afford, have one for combat purpose and one for shooting purposes where you can put all the accessories and improvements for that matter. You cannot put all the things you would like to one gun with two intentions or intended use. How can we tuck in a pistol with big sights, very big beavertails, and too much serrations on the slides. This will all contribute to snagging or difficulties in the drawing of the weapon or we are not comfortable in carrying. Thus it depends on all the purpose.

Yes, after sales service is important to a businessman, they earn more than the cost of the unit sold, that is one reason they will not put all the best in one gun but if you do there is additional amount.

New guns are manufactured not because they saw the flaws in the 1911's but to my mind they manufacture new one because they want to venture in that firearms business and to be competitive in the open market if they introduce new features or some kind of improvements. But absolutely not because 1911 is an 89 yrs in the business.

Take the ParaOrdnance as 1911 models, they just improve the JB 1911 Predecessors
putting more ammo capacity and bigger ejection ports but claimed it is the same mechanical functions with that of the first 1911. So, where is the big changes nothing. Just a refinements.

Thanks
 

Bud Helms

Senior Member
Jim,

I'm not sure I understand what it is your really asking. To partly quote your post, "... what is so hard about making a Model 1911 clone that works?" It's not hard at all.

Think Colt hasn't ever made a 1911 that wasn't reliable?

If a SIG or a Glock pattern were made by ten different after-market companies, operability of all of them probably would not be identical. Some would probably work better that others.

90 year old design or not, the clone market didn't open up until around 1987 (?). So the clone producers haven't been making the 1911 pattern for 90+ years. The makers of quality 1911s today are either long time second sources to the military or are gun makers of quality throughout their product line.

The specialty makers, i.e., race gun build-up parts mfgs and distributors shouldn't be part of a discussion of 1911 reliability, IMHO.

The ease with which a 1911 owner can upgrade his pistol is an advantage, I think. You don't have to, but you can. I do. But an out of the box Auto Ordnance .45 ACP that favors 230 gr ball ammo (what the pistol was designed to shoot, anyway) is a perfectly acceptable weapon.

There are $50K automobiles and $3,000 refridgerators that are lemons. You can't guard against that. You can try to stay away from that brand.

By the way, I think SIG makes a fine pistol.

Glock too, their just UGLEEEEE! God knows they're ugly and let's 'em be born anyway. He obviously is a very forgiving God.

Sensop
 

BigG

New member
Jim, you know the answer and your question is probably just rhetorical, but I'll give you my answer anyway! :)

The 1911 produced for and by the Government or the COLT Commercial Government Model 45 ACP Pistols were and still are the finest combat automatic pistol designs made to date. This is despite 89 years of development time where designers have racked their brains (I suppose) to come up with something NEW or BETTER. Ain't happened yet. I don't say somebody won't come up with something someday, just that it ain't happened yet.

If we consider the development of the various automatic pistol actions, it becomes rapidly apparent that all types of actions, from tipping barrel, turning barrel, turning bolt, dropping block, prop-up, toggle, etc., etc., were designed prior to the end of the nineteenth century. The only one that survived to any extent was the JMB tipping barrel design.

But of course there were innovations, you say? Yes, I know Walther came out with double action, that's one innovation. I consider it of dubious value but others may like having to change their grip to fire successive shots. Yes, Walther and Beretta use dropping block actions. Check out a C96 Mauser to see the same idea before 1900. But Beretta uses a turning barrel! Check out many Eastern European designs from the first decade of the 20th Century, as well as the American Savage, to see this idea well before Pietro "invented" it. Desert Eagle uses a turning bolt! Hah! ever seen a Mars pistol? Makes a Desert Eagle look like a cap gun, and dates back before the 20th Century, IIRC.

The polymer frame is the one innovation I can think of that really is a milestone, but that's my opinion.

But I digress; the real reason is the combination of the do-it-yourself bent of Americans (an admirable quality in it's place), the champagne taste but beer pocket book of many Americans, the woeful disrespect of the average American for fine craftsmanship and hand work, and, frankly, the credulity of the average American.

The original COLT 45 Automatic Pistols were hand fitted by skilled labor of long employ. Springfield Armory (the REAL one) could not sucessfully produce the Model 1911 based on the blueprint drawings they worked up until they redrew it based on the actual COLT pistol being produced by COLT. This required the eye of a craftsman, not a computer geek or blueprint engineer. These skilled laborers would be equivalent to a Baer, Wilson, Clark, Bilby, Heinie, etc. You would pay much more for a COLT Gov't Model if it were hand fitted by the likes of them! But that was the average skilled employee of Colt in those days, and Colt still employs some handfitting in their 45s!

Because people always want to make a buck, some entrepreneur copyrights a name, such as Springfield Armory or 1911A1!! The uninformed masses take it for the REAL Gum't Armory, which closed under LBJ. Instant recognition and credibility! Buy a Springfield M1A or 1911A1! They think they got the REAL THING. This exploits the credulity which the public so often exhibits.

Some of the other clones I'll give the credit that they do go by their own name, not hide behind a phony historical association. But then, we have the kitchen table -- monkey see, monkey do -- penchant of Americans. Hey, I can do that! Unfortunately, I believe that is exactly the attitude behind the clone makers, for a large part. Access to CNC machines does not replace a craftsman's eye and understanding. John Moses Browning could make more with a bastard file and a bar of steel than most manufacturing concerns can make with CNC machinery, IMHO, unfortunately. Apparently, so can Norinco, from what I understand, to the CNC users shame! :(

Finally, the notion that if it looks pretty, it's quality, seems to pervade many people's thinking today. This appeals to the common tendency of us all to want something for nothing. Hence, the shiny, stainless, Loaded Elite Bazoonga Models we are confronted with these days! The uninformed fail to recognize a gussied up POS is still a POS!

I know, I've been all over the place with this, but think it's important that you know I have a basis for liking COLT 45 Automatic Pistols, not just an unthinking bias! :D


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Be mentally deliberate but muscularly fast. Aim for just above the belt buckle Wyatt Earp
"It is error alone that needs government support; truth can stand by itself." Tom Jefferson
If you have to shoot a man, shoot him in the guts, it may not kill him... sometimes they die slow, but it'll paralyze his brain and arm and the fight is all but over Wild Bill Hickok
Remember: When you attempt to rationalize two inconsistent positions, you risk drowning as your own sewage backs up.
45 ACP: Give 'em a new navel! BigG


[This message has been edited by BigG (edited January 04, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by BigG (edited January 04, 2000).]
 

BigG

New member
No, Zot, the SIG 220 does not end the 1911 debate! Now, the Glock, there's a fine European pistol! :D

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Be mentally deliberate but muscularly fast. Aim for just above the belt buckle Wyatt Earp
"It is error alone that needs government support; truth can stand by itself." Tom Jefferson
If you have to shoot a man, shoot him in the guts, it may not kill him... sometimes they die slow, but it'll paralyze his brain and arm and the fight is all but over Wild Bill Hickok
Remember: When you attempt to rationalize two inconsistent positions, you risk drowning as your own sewage backs up.
45 ACP: Give 'em a new navel! BigG
 

mineralman

New member
If memory serves, the 1911 was a combat pistol. That means the thing designed (by a master, no doubt, but still purpose designed) to basically be a last ditch peice of machinery, for american soldiers to use to put hardball rounds into a mansized target (well, upper torso, really) at max twenty yards. To fill this role, it basically needed to be tougher than nails, reliable, and decently accurate. Were it any other designer, this would have been a merely adequate design, which would have served for a time, and then quietly disappeared into the mists of history. However, as it was designed by John Moses Browning, probably the greatest gun designer befpre or since, it rose well above these humble requirements, into the 1911 we all know and love. So, what could be better, you ask? Well, very little, except the pistol that Browning himself designed to fix all the faults that he himself saw with the 1911. And what is this epitome of modern handguns? The Browning Hi-Power. So, the 1911 that works really is the Hi-Power, from a certain point of view.
 
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