What would you do and what are the consequences......

[ZekeLuvs1911]

While driving to the range today, I drove by a Burger King and a scenario popped into my head. If I saw a shooting occurring similar to the type that happened in California where helpless patrons were being gunned down by a murderous looney, would I be convicted if I got out and stopped him dead in his tracks. That is to say that he has already shot and killed patrons and was walking around executing others, what would you guys do? Keep in mind that it will take 5+ mins for any law enforcement agents to arrive, which to the innocents is a lifetime and there are young children there. Also, in NJ, ccw are rarer than an honest politician. It would probably take me 20 secs. to stop, get my handgun from the trunk, load it, and approach with surprise (hopefully) on my side. I had pretty figure that for me, the lives of others are more important and that I couldn't sleep well for the rest of my days if I did nothing to prevent a massacre when I had the means to do so. What do you guys think? I play these mind games with myself every so often because I believe that you can never know when you can make a difference..............

 

[bastiat]

Actually, if he's wandering around outside, would you rather get out of your car and draw your weapon, or just hit the gas on the biggest caliber defensive weapon you have (ie, your car)?

 

[ZekeLuvs1911]

Actually, just like the case in California, he's inside mowing people down. You have to at least get to the window or door to get him....

 

[Ralf]

If you are driving by you won't even notice anything happening.

If you do notice, you won't have a grasp of the situation.

When (if) you are really so comfortable with your grasp of this situation, go ahead and let the lead fly.

My experience says that the average street scene is not so quickly mastered.

 

[Marko Kloos]

Of course the proper response is as follows:

Calmly dispatch him with your uber-CCW piece, then pick up some fries and take off before the heat gets there. The starry-eyed sheeple will be so thankful that they'll stonewall the fuzz as to the identity of their heroic rescuer.

Heh.

In real life, even if you manage to take the BG out, in states like New Jersey and Maryland you'll get arrested for illegal CCW and Murder Two, and a half dozen patrons of the burger joint will sue you for the "emotional distress" and pain and suffering, since their snot-nosed brats had to watch Mr. Bad Guy ventilate his spleen all over their Happy Meals.

 

[KSFreeman]

The purpose of carrying a pistol is to stay out of trouble. Run away, run away, run away!

 

[Oleg Volk]

You draw and approach...then the arriving cops shoot you in the back, thinking you were the BG

 

[B9mmHP]

Good plan, KSFreeman.:barf: :barf:

edited to explain my barfs.

In Texas if one fails to stop and render aid you may be prosecuted. Not being a lawyer, don`t know if this would be considered not rendering aid but if I sat on a jury, you know what my decision would be.

 

[labgrade]

All well 'n good = "render aide."

& what may be any legal ramifications from your actions?

As disgusting as it may seem to the rest of y'all (& to myself, BTW) why would I ever want to inject anything personal into our society's "sue at any cost" and/or "you're screwed if you do & screwed if you don't" society?

I'm not so certain that I would even be a "good witness" any longer.

Our society is big-time ready for a huge colon-flush.

My whole take would be to "render aid" in every way possible, & just "fade away," afterwards.

Problem is, most anything anyone could do urban-wise is all "on camera" now-a-days, & I really don't care to even "prospect" anything urban any longer - let alone "get involved."

"Cities," especially, & "towns" can all take a flyin' hike - I have come to the extent that I really do not care to interact with anyone other than "known entities."

It sucks.

 

[slick slidestop]

In Texas if one fails to stop and render aid you may be prosecuted

That is not intended to force you to get involved in a shooting, that is intended to prevent YOU from hurting someone (car wreck etc) and leaving them on the street.

That said, in Texas you can use deadly force to protect another, not just yourself. You can also use deadly force to protect anothers property(ie neighbors ) if that person has given you notice that they would like for you to do so (it is worded differently in the statute, I don't have it with me at work)

Texas, you gotta love it.

 

[ZekeLuvs1911]

I believe in the latest issue of Combat Handguns, Massad Ayoob explains that in a situation as I described above, he would argue to a jury about the "Doctrine of Necessity." All it says is that to prevent a greater evil, you have to commit a lesser evil. In the terms of the law, he says that "You are allowed to break the law in a rare circumstance where following the law would cause more human injury than breaking it." Soooooo.......if this is the case, by following the law and not drawing in the sense that you are not a CCW carrier, you are causing more human injury. Soooooo........draw and get involved because it is a case where by not following the law in this circumstance you are preventing a greater evil. Interesting. He also details how he won several cases using this arguement with a lawyer at his side.

 

[Don Gwinn]

I think the Competing Harms argument would probably work. But cheer up--it may not matter. More likely the bad guy will kill you before you ever have to worry about court.

Have a nice day!

 

[labgrade]

& for "any legal defense," you gotta figure at least a $10K "argument" for your side of the deal. & this paid out of your pocket - nobody will cough up thew bucks to save yer butt.

Do you have that kinda cash floating around, & if so, why would you want to?

For being a "good guy," are you willing to put up that kinda cash to "merely" "help out?"

I've reconsidered my take on anything to do with "people" any longer.

It does suck, as I've mentioned, but I didn't make the rules & really don't care to be dragged into a "that MacD's coffee was too hot" legal hassle.

I don't have the $10K to "play" with somebody's idea of "what the world should be" argument, & won't.

That does suck, but, "the realities of today" established what is "real" & I refuse to play with it - not to mention, I can't afford it.

If someone legitimately required my intervention, I would help them out, and God help me, I would thereafter do everything I could to be a complete non-entity.

 

[chaim]

Being that I live in Maryland and don't want to spend the rest of my life in jail for murder I would not stop. I would call the cops on my cell phone and tell them the situation.

Even after I move to a CCW state I guess it would depend on the state. Some are almost as bad as Maryland if you actually use your CCW weapon in a defensive shooting and to actively engage in a situation where you have the option of retreating may mean as much jail time as it would in MD (not to mention the loss of one's right to own guns). In a state like that I would again, use the cell phone to call the cops to appraise them of the situation. In a more open state I may go to help, but again I'd first call the cops and be sure they knew the situation (including mine- don't want to be shot when they think I'm the BG because I'm standing there with a gun). Then again if you feel you must help and you are in a state with legal carry (even those that will prosecute) whose to say you weren't just going in for a burger and walked in on the situation and thus you were clearly acting to save your, and everyone else's, life.

 

[12-34hom]

Rendering aid.

If i see a forceable felony taking place [here in Iowa] i have right to use such force nessacary to stop it from taking place.

I would hope, if i were a patron of that Burger King and someone was driving by, saw what was going on and had the legal right to render aid to those being shot up inside; he or she would do so.

Maybe if it was someone you knew or a relative that was about to be killed for no other reason than being in the wrong place at the wrong time, it might change your ideas about self defense.

Running and hiding is not an option, at least for me.

Take the high road! Isn't this the motto that we go by here at TFL?

12-34hom.

 

[Jake 98c/11b]

Even if there is a cost involved with doing the right thing, it is still the right thing to do.


There but for the grace of God go I. Could be friends and family there, imagine leaving them there to suffer the consequences of your inaction.

Even if I lose several years of my freedom and all I have aquired to date it would still be the right thing to do.

 

[org]

I was disappointed in the responses in this thread until the last two...anyone who can watch a massacre take place and has the means to stop it, should do the right thing. Anyone who doesn't know what the right thing is shouldn't be carrying.

This is a very different situation than witnessing a robbery (with no indication that violence is going to be done). In that case, not getting involved is an option, probably the best option.

Jake and 12-34, good replies.

 

[Dennis]

Org,

I must disagree.

If I am with my granddaughter, it could endanger her for me to grab my .45 and rush into a gunfight, against an unidentified and unknown number of enemy, with unknown capabilities.

If I am alone, I have more options. If I must protect my family, my options become different and more limited.

Therefore, your suggestion I should not be carrying fails a common sense application of good training.

 

[Fraser]

ZekeLuvs - you don't have to look to California for an incident like this. A few years ago 3 employees at McDonalds on Rt. 130 in Burlington, NJ were executed after a robbery.

 

[ZekeLuvs1911]

Thanks for the responses. This is something I wonder about alot. There was a situation in Teas back before it became a CCW state that envokes anger in me. A manic was shooting patrons in a cafeteria after he crashed his truck into it. A lady had a pistol in the car but was forced to keep it in there because of the law. She was forced to watch him shoot her parents. I tell you what, if I saw that situation occuring from the outside, time to take the perp down! I disagree with just calling the cops. By the time they get there, everybody would be dead. I know that CCW is a huge responsibilty but we have an even bigger one towards our fellow citizens. If I was in that establishment, I would be praying to God for someone to come help. To just run away is the wrong thing to do and we all here cry sheeple when the antis want to ban our rights. Who is the bigger sheep if we let predators get away with murder when we are in a position to do something about it?