What were the earliest gas-powered guns of any sort?

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Jim March

New member
I'm wondering what the earliest gas-recoil systems looked like. I know the BAR of WW1 period was gas-operated.

I suspect that gas operation wouldn't have occurred to anybody in the black powder era because the system would have either gunked up, rusted shut or both in short order...and then there was probably a period after smokeless came out when people were still thinking in "black powder terms" so to speak.

Anybody know what the oldest gas systems were and what they were used for?
 
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mikejonestkd

New member
Manuel Mondragón made a gas operated firearm in 1887. According to filed patents Browning was working on a gas machine gun as early as 1891 and the Browning 1895 potato digger machine gun was the first successful gas operated machine gun, AFAIK....

The maxim was recoil operated.
 
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Jim March

New member
Manuel Mondragón made a gas operated firearm in 1887.
Click to expand...

Maybe in the lab. He was actually having them built by 1908 per this page:

http://world.guns.ru/rifle/autoloading-rifles/mex/mondragon-e.html

Even 1908 is earlier than I would have expected for a shipping product. He must have had experimental critters long before that.

According to Wikipedia the first really decent smokeless powder dates to 1884, at least in the lab:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokeless_powder

By 1886 we find the first production rifles meant to use the new stuff:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebel_rifle

Interesting.

I'm poking into this to figure out just how ridiculous my own gun is :). I've got gas-operated shell ejection working on my Ruger New Vaquero :D. It's a sorta-replica 1873 Colt to start with, and now it spits out empty shells as I fire. Only the last needs manual ejection. Next step is a tubeloader; the goal is to get the total reload time comparable to typical DA speedloader speeds :).

The first version worked perfectly with 38Spl ammo, held up with 38+P, commited suicide with three rounds of full-house 357 :D. The new version is getting tested today, the gas tap assembly just after the muzzle is now steel and aircraft grade aluminum (top section of a motorcycle fork tube, heavily modified and wrapped in brass and leather).

Yes, pics and video are coming :D. This turkey manages to absolutely shred every single element of the SASS rulebook :p. The real hoot if I can get everything running right would be to run it in IDPA revolver class some weekend...
 
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Mike Irwin

Staff
I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think Maxim was using a gas operated action, was he? I thought he was all about recoil operation.

ETA: My mistake. Apparently Maxim patented gas-operated designs in the mid 1880s.
 
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EdInk

New member
The mad scientist that is Jim March. Truly an Internet legend in his own right.

I really have to see this latest project. If it doesn't merit a patent, perhaps a Rube Goldberg award. When will we see pics?
 
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Jim March

New member
Well this part hasn't changed from the Mk1 to the Mk2 - the two-stage loading gate:

5528257837_ec4e5a7b9c_b.jpg


5528257471_9797ed8aee_z.jpg


Fully closed position: this holds round five in the holster and stays closed during the firing of round one in order to keep round six in the gun:

5528257031_c2c1a4db20_z.jpg


Autoeject position - top half open, bottom half closed. The gun will still fire like this, and empties come flying out.

5528845968_b9d984738b_z.jpg


Loading gate fully open, including what's left of the original gate - cylinder is now unlocked for reloading:

5528846204_497466c8b9_z.jpg


All pics shown with the "Goshdarn Hacksite" Mk5 unmounted, as that's under non-disclosure from Tim Sheehan at Goshen :).

This would only work on a 357 or smaller caliber! With a 9mm cylinder it's possible the frame wouldn't need minor clearancing since there's no rim. If I had a 9mm cylinder to work with, I'd strongly consider reaming it to 9x23Winchester, which is ballistically similar to the 357Sig but uses a lengthened 9mm shell. That would also be easier to tube-load and if I get the cash together I'm considering a custom cylinder in 9x23 off a Bowen blank. Because the rear of a 9mm-family shell doesn't have to be fully supported, I could run a very aggressive cylinder chamfer for a "funnel effect" on reloading.

Initial experients with tube-loading the 357Mag are however promising even with more or less no chamfer at all, as long as I use well-crimped jacketed "somewhat pointy" rounds. Wadcutters or modern "flat-nose lead" or the like, no, it's a mess.
 
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Rifleman1776

New member
Your title is confusing.
An air rifle is "gas powered".
Lewis and Clark took one on their journey. There is history of air (gas) powered guns before that period in time.
 
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Jim March

New member
Right. Makes sense. What I mean is, exhaust gasses from an actual firearm tapped from the barrel or muzzle to operate the action.

I don't know of any other guns (so far) that use gas pressure for ejection only.
 
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FrankenMauser

New member
Unbuilt patents aside...

The first prototype I know of is John Browning's modified lever rifle, using a baffle at the muzzle, and operating rod to actuate the lever - thus turning it into a full-auto.

As far as I can tell:
The first production gas-operated firearm was the 1895 "Potato Digger" (as mentioned by mikejones).

Manuel Mondragón's patents may have been filed, but don't seem to have made it into production before JMB's. I also can't find any solid information on a prototype.
 
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Nickel Plated

New member
That's a pretty nifty design Jim. Would have never thought of it (maybe I would have if I cared more about SAAs :p) Do you have issues with the shells ejecting back into your face?
 
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Jim March

New member
Do you have issues with the shells ejecting back into your face?
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Yes :). But I'm testing two different solutions today.

I've built a strap-on forearm-mounted brass catcher made out of leather, an old coathanger and some plastic mesh netting :). It lines up OK below the sights but it's still likely to be a "range toy only" and I might discard it. The prototype is just slapped together to test the concept.

The other answer is a hammer-mounted shell deflector. It's a pure bolt-on, not a permanent install and no hole had to be drilled in the hammer - good thing, too, that's *hard* metal :). It's made of thick copper and looks...odd of course but not too bad. The shell deflector spits rounds to the right/rear.

I have to test the gas pressure available with the new setup. The Mk1 was "mostly" able to deal with standard-pressure 38s (ejection rate of about 90% or more), worked great with 38+P (100% ejection!) and then spat rounds annoyingly fast back at me with two full-house 357s before it blew the cap downrange :). Ended up using my goatee as a shell deflector :D.

The Mk2 has a smaller gas tube but it's positioned better at the muzzle. I suspect it'll still need 357s to work reliably, which is fine by me - that's my carry ammo, not 38s. And if I do race it against DA wheelguns I'd want to make major regardless, so yeah, a "357 only" gas setup is fine by me. I'll test the Mk2 with 38s and if it works there, I might do a switchable waste-gate so I can close it for 38s, open it to drop the pressure a bit for 357s.

But if the shell deflector works that shouldn't be necessary.
 
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Jim March

New member
You know you've gone a leeeetle bit over the edge when there's no longer a standard term for the type of action in your gun.

:eek:
 
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Navy joe

New member
I want to stand as close to the edge as I can without going over. Out on the edge you see all the kinds of things you can't see from the center.
Kurt Vonnegut

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/k/kurt_vonnegut.html#ixzz1HYGtIKmw

You know, there's the old "malfunction' with cap and ball of enlarged flash holes driving the hammer back. Done correctly you'd be in NFA territory though, full auto Vaquero. Unless you do a hammer catch disconnector like in an AR-15, then you have semi-auto vaquero.
 
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Jim March

New member
Well see...shot to shot speed isn't actually the slowdown. I've optimized this critter to my hands already and at least with full-house ammo, I don't think my shot-to-shot speed would go up that much with DA. Not and get decent accuracy. I can strong-side-thumb this thing pretty quick.

Now...yeah, in theory I could run a second oversize gas line back along the topstrap and rig a "gas catcher" on the hammer somehow. Dunno if it would have enough pressure to cock it! But...yeah, trying to control full-house 357 doing full auto is not my idea of fun :). I could maybe add a comp to try and keep the nose down but I doubt I'd still have enough gas pressure.

No...I think I'll stay with trying to get the total reload time down to DA-wheelgun speeds. I think I can do it. That alone would be just hilarious.

The real "comedy" comes if, God forbid, I ever have to shoot some fool. We're talking about my daily carry piece. What the Pima County AZ prosecutor's office would think of this critter is something I'm trying not to think about. Mostly unsuccessfully.
 
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