You are in a restaurant with your weapon, you did not intend to carry your gun to a place that serves alcohol, illegal in most most states, but you were going to eat and then you are out of there. While waiting for your food, a perp enters and takes a gun out of his jacket, he announces a robbery. What do you do?M33
What to do?
- Thread starter Mark M33
- Start date
You pull out your knife.... 
As a good guy, the gun should have been left behind in the first place. Way too much legal hell to go through if the gun comes into play. Beyond that, how one responds really depends on the situation. An adequate reply is not possible without more information.
This thread reminds me of Pulp Fiction....
$.02
[This message has been edited by SB (edited April 04, 1999).]
As a good guy, the gun should have been left behind in the first place. Way too much legal hell to go through if the gun comes into play. Beyond that, how one responds really depends on the situation. An adequate reply is not possible without more information.
This thread reminds me of Pulp Fiction....
$.02
[This message has been edited by SB (edited April 04, 1999).]
Rob Pincus
New member
The fact that Alcohol is being served would be the last thing I would consider. It is not a tactical concern.. my objective as an off duty LEO and an armed citizen would be governed by the following:
#1. everyone's safety
#2. the stopping of the crime
#3. the stopping of the criminal (capture/other)
Far distant #4. Legal ramifications
(this is still valid for me to answer as an armed citizen as I spend a great deal of time out of my own jurisdiction to enforce the law)
#1. everyone's safety
#2. the stopping of the crime
#3. the stopping of the criminal (capture/other)
Far distant #4. Legal ramifications
(this is still valid for me to answer as an armed citizen as I spend a great deal of time out of my own jurisdiction to enforce the law)
2nd amendment protects my uninfringed right to have and carry weapons. I can define "infringe".
Personal safety of any friends/family is the top priority. Whether my pistola was produced and/or used would depend on many factors, including the apparent mental state of the robber, caliber and action style of PDF, distance, number of incidentals (friendlies) present, etc.
As I am not LEO, it is not my concern to hold criminals. Safeguarding my "circle of friends" (everyone) is. Elimation of threat will often be the best way to ensure that protection.
[This message has been edited by Spectre (edited April 05, 1999).]
Personal safety of any friends/family is the top priority. Whether my pistola was produced and/or used would depend on many factors, including the apparent mental state of the robber, caliber and action style of PDF, distance, number of incidentals (friendlies) present, etc.
As I am not LEO, it is not my concern to hold criminals. Safeguarding my "circle of friends" (everyone
) is. Elimation of threat will often be the best way to ensure that protection.[This message has been edited by Spectre (edited April 05, 1999).]
Rob Pincus
New member
Notice that "other" in item #3, Spectre ??
Jeff Thomas
New member
Gentlemen, with all due respect, we're not making much progress on this. And, it is a question I have considered lately myself, so I am truly interested in experienced opinions here.
Let's add a few more assumptions to Mark's hypothetical. The restaurant is reasonably full, you're seated near the cashier, at the counter, and the BG has a gun pointed at the waitress behind the counter. She stands near the cash register. He seems nervous and his finger is on the trigger. He's glancing around the room as he tells her to hurry up and get the cash out of the drawer. There are customers either standing or seated on the side of the BG away from you - that is, any stray or penetrating rounds would present a clear danger to others.
Now what?
My ignorant guess (based upon my current, very limited training): if I can discreetly do it, I place my hand on my gun and prepare to draw and fire only if he makes a clear move to fire his gun. I realize that means the waitress may die before I can take action. However, under the circumstances it seems foolish to provoke him when there is so much danger of injuring or killing innocent bystanders. If he fired I would try to drop to my knees and fire in an angle upwards to minimize danger to the others. Of course, this is much easier to consider now, in safety and comfort, than it would be then.
I also don't see the logic of considering the legality (of being in the wrong place with my gun) at the time of the crime. If necessary, and if I felt confident with my skill and circumstances, I believe I would have a moral obligation to save life in such a circumstance.
We have many experienced TFL members, including a multitude of LEO's and former LEO's. What is a citizen's proper response in such a difficult situation?
Let's add a few more assumptions to Mark's hypothetical. The restaurant is reasonably full, you're seated near the cashier, at the counter, and the BG has a gun pointed at the waitress behind the counter. She stands near the cash register. He seems nervous and his finger is on the trigger. He's glancing around the room as he tells her to hurry up and get the cash out of the drawer. There are customers either standing or seated on the side of the BG away from you - that is, any stray or penetrating rounds would present a clear danger to others.
Now what?
My ignorant guess (based upon my current, very limited training): if I can discreetly do it, I place my hand on my gun and prepare to draw and fire only if he makes a clear move to fire his gun. I realize that means the waitress may die before I can take action. However, under the circumstances it seems foolish to provoke him when there is so much danger of injuring or killing innocent bystanders. If he fired I would try to drop to my knees and fire in an angle upwards to minimize danger to the others. Of course, this is much easier to consider now, in safety and comfort, than it would be then.
I also don't see the logic of considering the legality (of being in the wrong place with my gun) at the time of the crime. If necessary, and if I felt confident with my skill and circumstances, I believe I would have a moral obligation to save life in such a circumstance.
We have many experienced TFL members, including a multitude of LEO's and former LEO's. What is a citizen's proper response in such a difficult situation?
let him walk out the door. the distance between you and him is to close to engage in any type of response w/out a fatal or serious gunshot to either you or an innocent bystander. in an instance where the bg is that nervous either from stress or the influence of some substance, any form of movement may seem to him to be antagonistic. and who know's if there is anyone else that is armed or an off duty or plainclothes cop in there either.
let him walk out the door. the distance between you and him is to close to engage in any type of response w/out a fatal or serious gunshot to either you or an innocent bystander. in an instance where the bg is that nervous either from stress or the influence of some substance, any form of movement may seem to him to be antagonistic. and who know's if there is anyone else that is armed or an off duty or plainclothes cop in there either.
onne other thing nothing personal however WEAPON has a negative connotation to all the anti's out there.i found calling it a firearm throw's them off balance
onne other thing nothing personal however WEAPON has a negative connotation to all the anti's out there.i found calling it a firearm throw's them off balance
cornered rat
Moderator
recguns.com used to have a feature called The Red Zone
http://www.recguns.com/TRZ.html
Would anyone here care to revive the concept...it would make for an informative discussion of topics like this.
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Cornered "but cheery" Rat
http://ddb.com/RKBA Updated March 20
http://www.recguns.com/TRZ.html
Would anyone here care to revive the concept...it would make for an informative discussion of topics like this.
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Cornered "but cheery" Rat
http://ddb.com/RKBA Updated March 20
If you are not a LEO, your concern is not with stopping the crime or arresting the perp.
If you are carrying with a CCW license, you are limited by law to self-defense, which means that you may defend yourself and your family against an immediate threat of death or serious injury. (I would probably defend an innocent person regardless, and take my chances.) In doing so, I would not worry overmuch about the liquor issue.
Unless the perp fires, you sit tight and let him walk. If you cut loose you may turn a robbery into a massacre and then you will be responsible, and be held responsible, for the deaths or injuries that result.
A CCW does not give you police powers or allow you to take police action. Period.
If you are carrying with a CCW license, you are limited by law to self-defense, which means that you may defend yourself and your family against an immediate threat of death or serious injury. (I would probably defend an innocent person regardless, and take my chances.) In doing so, I would not worry overmuch about the liquor issue.
Unless the perp fires, you sit tight and let him walk. If you cut loose you may turn a robbery into a massacre and then you will be responsible, and be held responsible, for the deaths or injuries that result.
A CCW does not give you police powers or allow you to take police action. Period.
BTW, I wonder if LEOs responding on this kind of issue could identify themselves as such. Problem is that a poster who is an LEO will talk about apprehending a criminal or stopping a crime, and some folks with CCW licenses think they are authorized to do things like that. To avoid confusion, would be nice to know who is an LEO so we understand better where coming from.
Thanks.
Thanks.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Rep. Susanna Gratia-Hupp of the Texas Legislature saw her parents killed in the cafeteria massacre at Killeen. In order to obey the law as it existed before we got a Concealed Handgun License system in Texas, she had left her pistol in her car.
Granted that the perp crashed his truck through the plate-glass window, and jumped out shooting, but I'd bet that CHL or no CHL, she will lose no more family members...
Unless it's quite obvious that our hypothetical perp is not going to shoot, or that my action could readily harm some Good Guy, I'd have to follow my own moral code about protecting others as well as myself, and damn the technicalities. "April Fool, Bleep-bleep."
It ain't easy...
Granted that the perp crashed his truck through the plate-glass window, and jumped out shooting, but I'd bet that CHL or no CHL, she will lose no more family members...
Unless it's quite obvious that our hypothetical perp is not going to shoot, or that my action could readily harm some Good Guy, I'd have to follow my own moral code about protecting others as well as myself, and damn the technicalities. "April Fool, Bleep-bleep."
It ain't easy...
David Wright
New member
IMHO,let him have the money, and move on...
Money is always easier to replace than the alternatives. If your only tool is a hammer, all problems begin to appear to be nails.(
Sometimes doing nothing IS the right move.
After that, be an accurate witness for the LEO's.
Money is always easier to replace than the alternatives. If your only tool is a hammer, all problems begin to appear to be nails.(
Sometimes doing nothing IS the right move.
After that, be an accurate witness for the LEO's.
Byron Quick
Staff In Memoriam
I let a BG walk out of a situation where he had threatened my life. Allowing him to live caused no end of grief to his next victim. Something to think about.
Let's put the shoe on the other foot. You are having dinner with your wife when a BG sticks up the cashier. Some one (LEO or not)at another table pulls out a gun and blasts away, putting a .40 Corbon through your wife's heart.
Anyone want to tell me how he was right and you will gladly help coach him to improve his marksmanship?
Anyone want to tell me how he was right and you will gladly help coach him to improve his marksmanship?
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Mr. Keenan, Sir, you're absolutely right. My understanding of Texas law is that were I to hit a good guy, I'm in deep doodoo. If I kill an innocent bystander, it's a murder charge on me.
I've always followed the rule that if you can't be sure of your hit, don't shoot. Doesn't matter if it's Bambi or Badguy...
I've always followed the rule that if you can't be sure of your hit, don't shoot. Doesn't matter if it's Bambi or Badguy...
Right on, Art! I don't think any of us would be so dumb as to start a firefight in a crowded restaurant. Let the BG take the money and flee.
Just get a good description of the BG so the police have something to work with; including (if it is safe to do so) a description of accomplices, vehicles, etc.
If he begins shooting people, a la Killeen, anyone has the right in Texas to use force or deadly force to prevent or stop the unlawful commission of deadly force. (OK, OK, don't start with the "what if the BG is a LEO?" arguments.)
But, "justified" does not mean "required" (to use force or deadly force).
It is usually best to stay out of the fray. What if the BG has unknown partners in the crowd? What if the off-duty 21 y/o deputy constable and/or a poorly trained, hypercop wannabe see you with a gun and think you are the BGs buddy?
The possibility of unwarranted death, injury, property damage, criminal charges, civil suits, etc. is just too great unless the BG starts shooting.
Frankly, even if BG shoots one person, the crowd is still there, your other problems still exist, etc. I probably would not open fire until my family, friends, or I were under the immediate threat of imminent serious bodily injury or death; to BG begins to assassinate people.
If he begins shooting a number of people, and I have a clear (safe) shot and those I am responsible for are safe, then I'll Mozambique him and BG will mean "Been Greased".
BTW, I'm only talking about non-LEOs. LEOs have their own rules, customs, policies, obligations, etc.
As y'all pointed out, if your use of force negligently injures an innocent party, immediately check both shoes -- you done stepped in it, big and bad.
For Texans, I recommend a careful reading of the Penal Code, especially chapter nine.
Just get a good description of the BG so the police have something to work with; including (if it is safe to do so) a description of accomplices, vehicles, etc.
If he begins shooting people, a la Killeen, anyone has the right in Texas to use force or deadly force to prevent or stop the unlawful commission of deadly force. (OK, OK, don't start with the "what if the BG is a LEO?" arguments.)
But, "justified" does not mean "required" (to use force or deadly force).
It is usually best to stay out of the fray. What if the BG has unknown partners in the crowd? What if the off-duty 21 y/o deputy constable and/or a poorly trained, hypercop wannabe see you with a gun and think you are the BGs buddy?
The possibility of unwarranted death, injury, property damage, criminal charges, civil suits, etc. is just too great unless the BG starts shooting.
Frankly, even if BG shoots one person, the crowd is still there, your other problems still exist, etc. I probably would not open fire until my family, friends, or I were under the immediate threat of imminent serious bodily injury or death; to BG begins to assassinate people.
If he begins shooting a number of people, and I have a clear (safe) shot and those I am responsible for are safe, then I'll Mozambique him and BG will mean "Been Greased".
BTW, I'm only talking about non-LEOs. LEOs have their own rules, customs, policies, obligations, etc.
As y'all pointed out, if your use of force negligently injures an innocent party, immediately check both shoes -- you done stepped in it, big and bad.
For Texans, I recommend a careful reading of the Penal Code, especially chapter nine.
Thanks, folks. I see too many people on this site who seem to have carried CCW to both absurdity and extreme danger. One guy says he carries two big Glocks, two little Glocks, two extra mags each, two bowie knives, etc., etc. (Don't ask me how he can walk, ask him.) This macho type would probably blast away with both hands at anything or anyone for any reason. He is the kind of person the anti CCW people just love to portray as being representative of us.
Any time deadly force is used, there is a threat to innocent persons, including the user of the force. It is best used, by LEOs or citizens, with extreme care. Even the killing of the bad guy in a clear case of self defense does not automatically result in the killer being cleared, even if a LEO.
Any time deadly force is used, there is a threat to innocent persons, including the user of the force. It is best used, by LEOs or citizens, with extreme care. Even the killing of the bad guy in a clear case of self defense does not automatically result in the killer being cleared, even if a LEO.
There seems to be a bigger issue at work here, one that I am not adequately prepared to answer: What is the strategic role of the armed citizen? Whatever the exact answer the general perception is, I'm sure it would be proactive and pro-safety.
Narrowing down to just this one scenario, and assuming that the scenario details are all true, I agree that the best thing to do is to let it go. What ever the robber would take is only a drop in the bucket next to the human lives that would be at stake in such a volatile scenario.
Again, I still think that without knowing more details, this scenario would be hard to respond to. Just the same, there are a few constants that I would most likely do in such a situation. 1. I would take cover. 2. I would do everything I can to contact the police. 3. I would only fight if lives are clearly being endangered.
Red Zone scenarios. Combat Hangdun magazine has something very similar to that and it's actually quite a lot of fun playing it out. This is just me, but if anyone plans to revive such a thing, diagrams are a must. Straight text is a waste of time.
Narrowing down to just this one scenario, and assuming that the scenario details are all true, I agree that the best thing to do is to let it go. What ever the robber would take is only a drop in the bucket next to the human lives that would be at stake in such a volatile scenario.
Again, I still think that without knowing more details, this scenario would be hard to respond to. Just the same, there are a few constants that I would most likely do in such a situation. 1. I would take cover. 2. I would do everything I can to contact the police. 3. I would only fight if lives are clearly being endangered.
Red Zone scenarios. Combat Hangdun magazine has something very similar to that and it's actually quite a lot of fun playing it out. This is just me, but if anyone plans to revive such a thing, diagrams are a must. Straight text is a waste of time.