Young.Gun.612
New member
I see a lot of talk on here about it, and I have no idea what y'all are talking about. So, what does it mean to "limp wrist", what causes it and what happens when one does it?
What is "limp wristing"?
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golfnutrlv
New member
Limp wristing as it's called usually refers to a less than ideal grip on a handgun. Most of the time in my experience it is that your hand is too low on the grip, causing the gun to malfunction.
Glock's have a habit of not liking this mistake, but others do as well. It most often results in an incomplete slide cycle. The fired case is not fully extracted, pushed back into the chamber, or it just causes a failure to extract/jam/failure to feed.
Reason is that there is not enough resistance/anchor for the gun to recoil around.
Watch this video, kind of puts it into visual mode.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jh9JhCyFFxA
Enjoy,
Glock's have a habit of not liking this mistake, but others do as well. It most often results in an incomplete slide cycle. The fired case is not fully extracted, pushed back into the chamber, or it just causes a failure to extract/jam/failure to feed.
Reason is that there is not enough resistance/anchor for the gun to recoil around.
Watch this video, kind of puts it into visual mode.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jh9JhCyFFxA
Enjoy,
My wife has a problem with limp wristing.
We were at the range the other day and one of the guns we were shooting was my Sigma 9mm. She was holding the gun a little low on the grip and her grip was not firm. The result was frequent jams and stove pipes. She does much better with a revolver.
We were at the range the other day and one of the guns we were shooting was my Sigma 9mm. She was holding the gun a little low on the grip and her grip was not firm. The result was frequent jams and stove pipes. She does much better with a revolver.
Limp wristing
Happens when you don't hold the gun firmly,
When the firing pin hits the primer the bullet shoots forward, the explosion pushes the slide backwards ejecting the spent cartridge and loading another round in the chamber when it pulls forward thanks to the slide's spring, this is a cycle.
For that recycling to happen the gun has to be held in a stable manner, if the wrist has a lot of play and jumps upwards, the slide doesn't bounce forward properly and the fresh round fails to load correctly causing a malfunction.
A proper stance is in my opinion a good start, with the upper torso in a fighting position, a little forward not different than in boxing or fencing. Remember a pistol is a weapon.
Happens when you don't hold the gun firmly,
When the firing pin hits the primer the bullet shoots forward, the explosion pushes the slide backwards ejecting the spent cartridge and loading another round in the chamber when it pulls forward thanks to the slide's spring, this is a cycle.
For that recycling to happen the gun has to be held in a stable manner, if the wrist has a lot of play and jumps upwards, the slide doesn't bounce forward properly and the fresh round fails to load correctly causing a malfunction.
A proper stance is in my opinion a good start, with the upper torso in a fighting position, a little forward not different than in boxing or fencing. Remember a pistol is a weapon.
For the most part, I'm in the same boat. I had a pretty long discussion with the poster of the video above, and while he does get the gun to malfunction, as far as I'm concerned, hes also forcing or manipulating the malfunction with the way hes holding/firing the gun. Personally, I dont think its a realistic test, but the results are there to see, either way. I tried the same exact thing (holding the gun that way), and I too had a malfunction at a rate of about one in three, or 30% with one of my Glocks. Even so, the gun still shot the other 60% of the time.
Now, if I hold the gun in a "normal" fashion, with my wrist "behind" the gun, no matter how I held it, even to the point of the gun flying out of my hand on firing, it ALWAYS fired and cycled as it should. It also worked holding it the same way, and with my hand turned to the side to the point of being awkward, with the same results. As long as I had a "grip" on the gun, with my wrist behind it, it always fired and cycled.
Funny thing was, the 1911 I shot along with the Glock (the initial discussion was the 1911 would work, the Glock wouldnt), had troubles when held lightly, because the grip safety was not always engaged, keeping the gun form firing until my grip was adjusted.
I'm not convinced its a real problem, although I do hear people say it is. If it were to be a problem, I cant imagine it would be for long, if you explained the problem and corrected the persons technique. My kids were shooing their High Powers at a very young age, and did initially have the issue, until I explained it to them, and from that point on, it was never an issue.
Limpwristing has little to do with the wrists, or even the grip, for that matter.
In order for an auto to function properly, the frame must remain still while the slide retracts from recoil. Limpwristing is when you allow the entire pistol to recoil rearwards. It is actually position and arm strength that combine to keep the frame stationary.
It is easy to create it while hipshooting with just your weak hand. Let your whole arm travel rearwards.
In order for an auto to function properly, the frame must remain still while the slide retracts from recoil. Limpwristing is when you allow the entire pistol to recoil rearwards. It is actually position and arm strength that combine to keep the frame stationary.
It is easy to create it while hipshooting with just your weak hand. Let your whole arm travel rearwards.
I understand what your saying, but I didnt find that to be the case.
The "lightest" I was holding my Glock and 1911 while trying to get them to balk, was basically no grip or hold whatsoever. The gun was just resting on my hand, the rear of the gun on the open web of my hand, and the trigger guard on top of my middle finger. The only thing keeping the gun from leaving my hand when fired, was my finger in the trigger guard. The Glock went through three full 17 round mags without missing a beat, and as I said earlier, except for the grip safety issue, so did the 1911.
For individual guns it also depends on the mass of the frame and the mass of the slide.
If the frame has enough mass (and everything else is set up correctly) the gun may cycle with very little support form the shooter's hand.
If the slide has more mass, or the setup is not correct (say a lot of slide to frame friction) the gun may fail to cycle if not held correctly.
The whole cycle occurs to fast for you to change how you are holding the gun.
The nerve speed up you arm and back down (let alone any brain functions) is to slow to alter the grip once the hammer falls.
If the frame has enough mass (and everything else is set up correctly) the gun may cycle with very little support form the shooter's hand.
If the slide has more mass, or the setup is not correct (say a lot of slide to frame friction) the gun may fail to cycle if not held correctly.
The whole cycle occurs to fast for you to change how you are holding the gun.
The nerve speed up you arm and back down (let alone any brain functions) is to slow to alter the grip once the hammer falls.
In addition to the slide-to-frame mass comparison, I'd suggest that the stiffness of the recoil spring and the potency of the round itself plays a big role in a pistols vulnerablity to limp-wristing.
The number of rounds left in the magazine might make a difference too since the "frame" gets lighter with each round spent.
The number of rounds left in the magazine might make a difference too since the "frame" gets lighter with each round spent.
Sturmgewehre
New member
You've probably not spent a whole lot of time at a public range with people of various skill levels.
I used to work as a range master and I've seen countless "limp wrist" failures with a number of different pistols. The Glock is by far the worst offender, but it's not alone.
Have you never been present when someone was having failures with a given pistol that couldn't be explained only to have someone else shoot the same pistol with the same ammo moments later and the malfunctions mysteriously went away? That's a classic sign of limp wrist failures.
I can't, no matter how hard I try, cause my Glock's to malfunction by holding them properly. I had a girlfriend several years ago that couldn't get two rounds to fire consecutively without a failure with the same G17.
Spend a little more time around novices with Glock 9mm's, you'll see it happen.
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Sturmgewehre
New member
Here's an example. Note she is holding the pistol in a conventional manner yet the first round fails to cycle properly causing a malfunction. The guy steps in, explains to her that it was caused by her not holding the pistol tightly enough, and the problem goes away.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHWAPtO7m90
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHWAPtO7m90
Gil Hebard Guns in Nashville had a book called A Treasury Of Pistol Shooting or something like that. I read it many years ago. One chapter was by Bill McMillan who was a Camp Perry winner many times. He recommended taking the pistol in the other hand and placing it in the dominant hand in alignment with the forearm. I got in the habit of doing that at the range and I've never had a 'limp wrist' event.
Sturmgewehre
New member
Here's an interesting development, the BATF tested Sig handguns and found the following:
It would appear that the BATF believes in "limp wristing" and has documented it by their own agents.
It would appear that the BATF believes in "limp wristing" and has documented it by their own agents.
Actually, I have, but I really dont remember seeing all that many malfunctions that could be called limp wristing (not that I was specifically looking for them either). Im not saying they werent, just that I cant say for sure that they were.
I never really encountered it to much with the people I've taught over the years (I've taught quite a few too), and most of the those that could be credited as the problem, were usually with smaller kids shooting their first larger caliber guns. As you said, once you point things out and explain them, its usually not an issue afterwords.
Theres no doubt shes not holding the gun properly, nor is she in any kind of reasonable or proper stance. The cause of that first round may well have been a legitimate limp wrist issue, but even after being "instructed" (if thats what that was), shes still obviously doing what I'd consider limp wristing, just by the way the gun is acting when she fires it. Still, it fired the rest of the rounds without issue.
Not trying to shift off the subject here, but initial proper training can, and I believe does, prevent this sort of thing, as well as other issues, altogether. I know the Glock seems to be one of the more talked about offenders here, but is it really the gun thats the problem (I dont think so), but really a shooter/training issue. That I do believe, and it seems to play out, and as you mentioned, it tends to disappear when the person is properly instructed.
I just now quickly scanned the report, but I didnt see anywhere where they specifically said it was "limp wristing" that was the problem.
I have a P250, and have owned quite a few other SIG's, and I suspect the "issues" were probably slide stop related more than anything else, but especially so with the P250's.
All SIG's are prone to the problem, especially if you are unfamiliar with them, and shoot with a "thumbs forward" grip. The position of the slide stop, and the position of the shooters hand, and specifically, their strong hand thumb (right handed shooters) are the cause, and the malfunction is usually the slide dropping on an empty mag.
With the P250, the slide stop seems to be even more sensitive than the other P series guns, and as well as the traditional malfunction, they are also prone to the slide locking back, at any point during firing, with rounds still in the mag. The leftys dont get left out here now either, as the guns have ambi controls. It also even more of a double whammy too, as the trigger finger can now also add to the problem.
My P250 has been flawless since I've had it too, by the way. I've had a number of "novice" shooters, as well as seasoned shooters (including long time SIG owners) shoot it, and have never had a limp wrist, or a stoppage of any sort, other than that described above (quite a few of those though). Even the old SIG shooters were having the problem, and I did at first as well. For me, I think its was more trigger finger related than it was thumb (and this seemed to be the consensus with a couple of the other shooters), since I (we) know not to hold the gun in a manner that would usually cause it.
On the Glock subjet...
They dont seem to tailor their springs to specific loads/calibers like some other brands.
As I understand it, my G27 uses the same recoil spring on .40SW as the G26 uses for 9mm.
I think the same is true for the G19 and G23?
Same gun, same spring, very different "kick" from the ammo.
All mechanical things being equal, it seems that the G26 would be much less tolerant of limp-wristing compared to the G27. No?
They dont seem to tailor their springs to specific loads/calibers like some other brands.
As I understand it, my G27 uses the same recoil spring on .40SW as the G26 uses for 9mm.
I think the same is true for the G19 and G23?
Same gun, same spring, very different "kick" from the ammo.
All mechanical things being equal, it seems that the G26 would be much less tolerant of limp-wristing compared to the G27. No?
I am always kind of amused when folks argue that limp wristing doesn't exist because they can't do it. My daughter is an engineering major at a major university now. She was not interested in shooting when she was growing up but now looks forward to going to the range with me when she comes home. The first time at the range, she had quite a few failures with a Glock. I explained to her why the gun needed resistance against which to cycle and she hasn't had a failure since. Her engineer's mind immediately understood what was happening, probably better than I did.
I can't tell you exactly how to get a pistol to fail to cycle, but there is no doubt in my mind that an unstable platform for semis, or at least for Glocks, can lead to such failures. Perhaps the people who try to get failures have good habits so ingrained that they just can't let the gun be loose enough to fail?
I can't tell you exactly how to get a pistol to fail to cycle, but there is no doubt in my mind that an unstable platform for semis, or at least for Glocks, can lead to such failures. Perhaps the people who try to get failures have good habits so ingrained that they just can't let the gun be loose enough to fail?