What is a "Hardcast" bullet?

[sakeneko]

I've been looking into getting some heavy .357 rounds for bear protection when hiking in the Sierras. I've noticed that a number of the heavier .357 bullets (over 154 grain or so) are advertised as "hardcast". I can't tell whether this is a type of simple lead bullet, a jacketed bullet, or something else. What does this term mean? Would I need to plan on cleaning lead deposits from the barrel of my revolver if I used it?

Thanks!

 

[Brian48]

It's an all lead bullet, but not soft lead. Very hard, does not cause leading in the barrel as much. Sometimes they include a copper gas check, sometimes they don't. Usually 92-93% lead, with 5-6% antimony, 2-3% tin. Exactly formula mixture varies from caster to caster.

 

[hardluk1]

you only want to shoot hard caste bullets on dangerous or heavy game and are typicaly used to break larg bones like shoulders. This not a load for just sending down range with out a hunt comeing up. Buffalo bore and federal load heavy 357 loads along with a couple others.

 

[Brian48]

I wouldn't say that. When I was reloading a lot for various calibers (.45, .357/.38Spl, 10mm/40sw, etc.., I always used hardcasted bullets. Much cheaper than jacketed bullets. Same for every reloader I knew.

 

[sakeneko]

Brian48 -- What is a "copper gas check"?

And how much less is "not as much" on leading the barrel? So far I haven't shot any non-jacketed bullets from my gun, mostly to avoid having to clean those. How many rounds of a standard lead roundnose would you expect to be able to shoot before you needed to clean off lead deposits? How many with this stuff?

hardluk1 -- I would be carrying these bullets in my S&W Model 60-10 J-Frame only when hiking in bear country, as a defense against a bear that didn't just leave when he or she saw a human being (Most of ours do.) or when practicing with them to learn to control my smallish revolver with heavy, kicky ammo. I understand that they'll be unpleasant to shoot from a gun as small as mine, but if I can handle the stuff, it beats having underpowered ammunition in a bear attack. I'm not a hunter, so I don't see any other use for it in my case.

 

[JakeSnakeSlim]

A J-Frame is not a bear gun. Get a 44 mag carbine or you may end up as dinner for the bear after annoying him with the concealed carry pistol.

 

[Old Grump]

A J-Frame is not a bear gun. Get a 44 mag carbine or you may end up as dinner for the bear after annoying him with the conceled carry pistol.

Niether are sharp sticks and rocks but they are better than bare hands and your 2" pocket knife. Good thing about bears is that they are not bullet proof and don't know they are supposed to laugh at snubbies. A better thing about the S&W model 60 is its more likely to be carried than a 7 1/2" barreled Ruger Blackhawk or a carbine. Won't find a bear when you are looking for him unless you are hunting bear, you will run into him coming back to camp with an armload of firewood and your carbine is leaning against the tree next to your axe....oops. Found mine when I was crawling out of my sleeping bag.

My Kerry Blue Terrier laying alongside of me never made a sound, never made a move, big help he was. My guns were in my trunk that night, the next night they were under my sleeping bag. Didn't see any more bears that trip but my neighbors did. Guess my trick worked.

 

[Brian48]

A gas check is a little copper "cup" at the base of the bullet. It's used to ensure minimal leading. Here's a good pic.

About how many rounds it would take before fouling becomes a problem, it really depends on how hard the bullet was casted. I've shot several hundred rounds of hardcasted bullets through my various guns without appreciable leading. Never had a problem with it, at least none that 4-5 minutes with a cleaning brush can't fix, where as shooting one box of butter soft .38Spl lead roundnose though my 686 would take me an hour to scrub out. Granted, for the calibers I use, the velocities generated are not very high anyway for leading to occur.

 

[old bear]

Rethink your choice for bear S/D

Sakeneko, with all do respect the only thing you are going to hurt shooting an extra H-D round out of an M-60 is yourself, the recoil will be fierce at best. Well there is one up side to using a J frame for defense against a bear is the J frame has a small front sight.

 

[oneounceload]

The bears in the Sierra, while curious and adventurous, are generally benign. We had them come into Carson homes all the time. Bear spray would be something to seriously consider to take along

 

[44 AMP]

Carry them if they make you feel better...

Buit only use them if the bear is actually chewing on you! Because at that point, you don't have much to lose!

Saw some pictures a few years back of what was left of a hiker who had emptied his .38 in the bear that ate him. Not pretty. Now, this was a HUGE bear, a big brownie, which killed (and ate parts of) two people. It was put down a few days later by several shots from a 7mm Mag BAR in the hands of a ranger.

Blacks aren't as big, or as tough, or (usually) agressive (unless there are cubs involved), but still, the best thing to do is leave the area. Let the bear have whatever it wants, as long as it isn't you or a family/party member.

Hard cast slugs in a .38 (or .357) are far from the best bear medicine, but can kill, IF you can get them where they need to go. And the head is not the best choice, unless the gun is inside the mouth!

Bear skulls are thick, and rounded, and very prone to shed handgun and low velocity rifle bullets, due to the angle. Bears also look much bigger than they are, so aiming at where you think the vitals are based on its size might not get the job done well, either. Some serious study is in order, before considering a smallbore (or any) handgun for bear defense.

Hardcast slugs are the only kind I shoot from my handguns, for several reasons. And there are different levels of "hard", as well as different levels of power they can be loaded to.

Take a pure lead bullet and dig your thumbnail into it. You can gouge a fair size notch. Do the same with a hardcast bullet and you leave a shiny spot on it. No gouge. I shoot them to keep down the leading with heavier loads in revolvers, and to keep them from being battered during the feeding cycle in autopistols.

The lead is alloyed with tin, and antimony, the exact proportions vary from caster to caster, and with the intended purpose of the bullet. "Hardcast" has nothing to do with the bullet shape, or the power level it is loaded to, it is a discription of the alloy used.

 

[publius]

Bullets cast while watching Pay per view.

 

[Sheikyourbootie]

Brian, those are nice 358156 boolits you cast there. Sitting over a Skeeter Skeltonesque max loading of 2400 that round is asswhoopingly delightful. Hollow pointed, I'd pit it against a jacketed hollow point any day of the week.

 

[sakeneko]

I know the M60 isn't an ideal bear gun, old_bear. It's just the best I own that I'd be likely to have at hand at all times while hiking or camping. In the Sierras, the bears are black bears, which are smaller than the brown bears or grizzlies I saw mentioned up-thread, and unlike them not territorial. I've encountered a couple while I didn't have a gun, and had no problem. They usually go away if humans are present and don't corner them or challenge them. So this is a "just in case" thing, that's all.

If I was planning to hike up in the Cascades or along the Canadian border (or in Canada), I'd get a full-size .44 magnum revolver or maybe a .454 Casull pistol.

 

[sakeneko]

Thanks, Brian! That answers my questions quite well.

 

[wvshooter]

Reality check. Anything less than a 44 magnum in a handgun is just whizzing in the wind against any bear, black brown whatever. Of course you could always use what you have in mind to shoot yourself behind the ear to end the agony. That's assuming you can get the gun up to your head while being attacked by a bear which is highly doubtful.

If your going to be spending time in bear country do the sensible thing and get your hands on a 44 magnum in a three or four inch barrel. That way you'll at least have a fighting chance of surviving a bear attack should it happen.

 

[CarbineCaleb]

Carry them if they make you feel better...

But only use them if the bear is actually chewing on you! Because at that point, you don't have much to lose!

I agree totally with that.

First of all, the odds that the bear you see needs shooting are very small. Even if he rushes you, it's most likely a bluff. Needlessly starting mortal combat with a bear due to panic won't help either one of you.

Second of all, you only have so many shots, and if you empty your gun at a moving target that's still distant, you probably won't get much value.

Third of all, even if he grabs you, you won't be instantly killed, and shooting at a range of say 10 feet and less, you can hit him even if he's moving, and at point blank range, you can shoot right into his throat, open mouth, skull.

Keep your nerve and hold your fire.

 

[montelores]

In John McPhee's book, "Coming Into The Country", a book which details the author's travels and encounters in Alaska and the recent history of the state (in the '70s), he tells the story of an Alaskan resident in the bush who believes that bears sense when men carry weapons and respond differently and aggressively in those situations. Therefore, he chose not to carry a gun (in sharp contrast to his fellow Alaskans).

Essentially, the fellow believed that men carrying a gun project a different "psychic profile", if you will, and that the bears respond in kind.

Nowhere in the book did he mention "hardcast bullets". NOW, I am back on topic!

Monty

 

[sakeneko]

Guys, I'm not planning to use the M60 as any kind of hunting gun. I'm not a hunter myself, but my father was. The M60 is not what I'd want if I were to take up hunting. I also wouldn't start shooting at a bear with any gun except to save a human being; he can have my stuff. While I don't value animals as highly as human beings, I like bears and wouldn't shoot one just to keep it from stealing my supper. Jumping into the car and taking off is more my thing.

I'm looking at the big bullets as a "just in case" thing, when the bear is right there and appears about to start chewing on me or somebody else. Point noted about holding my fire til the bear is close. I'd do that anyway; my vision isn't 100% (I'm blind in one eye). My training and practice all focus on handling stuff within 45 feet, and in most cases within 25.

 

[old bear]

Sakeneko, don’t get me wrong the M 60 is an excellent revolver, and I like you opt to have a weapon with me when I’m enjoying the great outdoors. I was only making the point, which apparently you were aware of, that the M 60 is far from ideal for defense against large 4-legged predators.