What if the Browning High Power was chambered to the .45ACP rather than the 9mm. Would it have be the semi-auto action of chioce? Beings that the High Power was the 1911 refined. Or is it that because some consider a Browning a knock off of the 1911, the reason it never gained the respect it should have gotten.
What if?
- Thread starter TNT
- Start date
i wouldnt consider a HP a knock off of a 1911, since they were created by the same man. HP came into the limelight during WW2 when both sides were using it, it has high capacity because it was a 9mm, dont think it would have been able to hold 13 rds of .45 ACP. The design is different from a 1911, and could be called an improvement but speculating as to whether its better than a 1911 or not all comes down to opinion
roger-ruger
New member
Definitely its an improvement over the 1911
1.
If you look at the rails of the HI-power, the frame lets the slide ride the frame rails all the way to the dust cover making slide travel back and forth more efficient and positive mating thereby possibly ensuring straighter slide travel over the frame. This designe seems a lot more sturdy as the slide is positively mated with the frame.
2.
Designed to be more combat proficient in any gunfight discarding the use of the grip safety.
3.
The magazine disconnect - in a grapple and scuffle scenario pistol owner can eject the magazine rendering the weapon inoperable.
4.
The caliber - maybe JBM realized that theres not much terminal ballistics differences the 45acp has over the 9mm.
5.
Why its not popular as the 1911? - b'coz people are obsessed with size - that of the caliber.
6.
Why is it I dont have the hi-power? - b'coz im in R.P. Hi-power parts are hard to come by in R.P. unlike the 1911.
Just my .02 cents.
Peace!
1.
If you look at the rails of the HI-power, the frame lets the slide ride the frame rails all the way to the dust cover making slide travel back and forth more efficient and positive mating thereby possibly ensuring straighter slide travel over the frame. This designe seems a lot more sturdy as the slide is positively mated with the frame.
2.
Designed to be more combat proficient in any gunfight discarding the use of the grip safety.
3.
The magazine disconnect - in a grapple and scuffle scenario pistol owner can eject the magazine rendering the weapon inoperable.
4.
The caliber - maybe JBM realized that theres not much terminal ballistics differences the 45acp has over the 9mm.
5.
Why its not popular as the 1911? - b'coz people are obsessed with size - that of the caliber.
6.
Why is it I dont have the hi-power? - b'coz im in R.P. Hi-power parts are hard to come by in R.P. unlike the 1911.
Just my .02 cents.
Peace!
rellascout
Moderator
I am a bit puzzled by your post. John Moses Browning designed both weapons. The BHP was finished after his death by Dieudonne Saive whose contributions to the design shuold not be discounted. It is in no way a knock off of the 1911. It was the orginal combat double stack hi cap pistol.
Outside the US the BHP was the semi-auto of choice. In the US we love our .45 ACP 1911 but around the world that is not the case. The 9mm BHP was used on both sides of WWII and was the side arm of choice for many militarys.
Finally do the research on the BHP. Many consider it the "King of Nines". They are well respected and most 9mm shooters put it in the top five. Look around and in every single "what 9mm should I buy" thread the BHP comes up at least once. I do not understand why or how you could consider the BHP unrespected????????????
ok maybe I failed to clarify things here. You always here talk of the 1911 and sometimes the BHP but the popularity never was reached with the BHP. You pick up a magazine and there is another 1911 knock off SW, Kimber, Springfield just to name a few. But look at the BHP may it fell into a class all in its self I don't really know just seems like the 1911 got more recognition than the BHP. Maybe it can't be duplicated who knows. Just seems that if the design was improved and better that you go withthe better one. Or maybe it's becasue it was on the losing side of WW2.
contender6030
New member
I wish they would make one in 45 ACP I'd probably have to have one.
Good point and an apparent improvement.
Debatable. I don't know how others hold a gun but I have never had a problem with the grip safety. I also like its presence on a C&L 1911.
Again debatable. Many of the exact same people who oppose the griip safety in point 2 oppose the mag disconnect in point 3. For a LEO, who is more likely than most to get into a fight for control of the gun I think it is a good feature. For the average civilian and especially the military person looking to just top off with a fresh mag the idea of renderring the gun inoperable during a tactical reload is not well recieved.
But there is an infinite difference between the two rounds terminal PERFORMANCE against humans when using the fully jacketed non expanding ammunition both were made to use. Before the advent of reliably expanding modern ammunition there was a big difference between the two and the 45 was a far better performer. JMB probably knew this but the world wanted a hi-cap 9 so he gave it one.
Undoubtably there is a desire to have the biggest out there. At the same time it seems pretty obvious by ammo on the shelf and guns in the cabinets that the 9mm seems more popular to the general public than the 1911 in 45. Size is not the issue it appears but perhaps the C&L mode of carry (which I have no personal problem with) weight, as well as the snazzy marketing of Glock, Sig, SA and others may be to blame. In addition I believe the BHP may be a more expensive gun to manufacture than the current wondernines and it is almost certainly heavier.
Can't comment there because I have no idea what R.P. is.
HorseSoldier
New member
I think it bears noting that many people look at the 1911 and the BHP and see the common lineage and assume John Moses Browning built a refined version of the 1911, and that the BHP is something he sorted out rather quickly by just fixing issues with the 1911.
This is not actually what happened, though I think the use by FN of Browning's name in marketing the pistol helps foster the belief. If you look at the pistol that would, eventually, evolve into the BHP as it existed at the time of Browning's death, it's hard to see any hint of a 1911 lineage externally. It was striker fired, the controls did not in any way mimic the ergonomics of the 1911, and it really did not look much like an HP-35 even, except for the curving backstrap. It did feature an evolution of the 1911 barrel and breech to the linkless format -- but that was about it.
The design at the time of his death does not appear to have been something destined for immortality -- no fault of Browning's of course, since he was dead and could not complete the refinement of his basic patent. It probably did not help that he and the FN design folks were working towards French military requirements that were probably overly optimistic for the state of the art at the time.
The "1911's little brother" lines of the HP-35 were all done by D. J. Saive after Browning's death and, more importantly, after the protections on Colt's 1911 patent lapsed in 1928. Without any patent issues to contend with, it was easy for Saive to solve problems by cherry picking the 1911 (plus making his own significant contributions to the design).
So . . . the Browning High Power ultimately did not reflect JMB's vision of how things could be fixed on the 1911 to improve on it, but rather reflected Saive's vision of how Browning's 1911 could be used to put an unfinished Browning pistol into working order.
The end result was a brilliant piece of pistol design, but should really be regarded, in final form, as Saive's work with a big dose of copying from Browning, rather than something Browning designed himself.
On the issue of whether a .45 ACP BHP would have proved more popular in the US than the 1911 . . . I don't know.
Between the fact that the 1911 predates the BHP and the fact that Colt and FN's marketing agreement concerning Browning's work meant that no BHP's were available for sale in the US until after WW2 really gives the 1911 a big head start on the High Power. Shooters are a conservative lot for the most part, and something that worked for almost 40 years before the BHP entered the market would tend to have an edge. Add to that the familiarity of two generations of mass-draft soldiers from WW1 and WW2 with the 1911 and I think the 1911's status was set before the Browning could be purchased in the US.
Also, I don't think a double-stack BHP in 45 ACP would, necessarily, have been a winner. The HP-35 feels great in the hand, but widebody it with 45 ACP and I don't think it would feel as well (but willing to give it a try if someone were to start making them today
).
The Canadians lost World War 2???
The BHP was the preferred pistol of our Canadian and British allies, and not something I'd really associate with the Nazis (they kept the factory running, but it's not like it was a P-38 or a Luger in the popular imagination and such). So I don't think that is really it.
ALL that said, I'm pretty much with TNT -- I'd love if folks like Kimber, Springfield, etc. started cranking out a product line of High Powers are elaborate and varied as the 1911 choices we have in the market today.
In the absence of such, I'm just going to have to "settle" for getting a Yost-Bonitz SRT package on my HP Standard, I think, to show the die hard 1911 guys I know that a Browning can be absolutely drool worthy as well.
This is not actually what happened, though I think the use by FN of Browning's name in marketing the pistol helps foster the belief. If you look at the pistol that would, eventually, evolve into the BHP as it existed at the time of Browning's death, it's hard to see any hint of a 1911 lineage externally. It was striker fired, the controls did not in any way mimic the ergonomics of the 1911, and it really did not look much like an HP-35 even, except for the curving backstrap. It did feature an evolution of the 1911 barrel and breech to the linkless format -- but that was about it.
The design at the time of his death does not appear to have been something destined for immortality -- no fault of Browning's of course, since he was dead and could not complete the refinement of his basic patent. It probably did not help that he and the FN design folks were working towards French military requirements that were probably overly optimistic for the state of the art at the time.
The "1911's little brother" lines of the HP-35 were all done by D. J. Saive after Browning's death and, more importantly, after the protections on Colt's 1911 patent lapsed in 1928. Without any patent issues to contend with, it was easy for Saive to solve problems by cherry picking the 1911 (plus making his own significant contributions to the design).
So . . . the Browning High Power ultimately did not reflect JMB's vision of how things could be fixed on the 1911 to improve on it, but rather reflected Saive's vision of how Browning's 1911 could be used to put an unfinished Browning pistol into working order.
The end result was a brilliant piece of pistol design, but should really be regarded, in final form, as Saive's work with a big dose of copying from Browning, rather than something Browning designed himself.
On the issue of whether a .45 ACP BHP would have proved more popular in the US than the 1911 . . . I don't know.
Between the fact that the 1911 predates the BHP and the fact that Colt and FN's marketing agreement concerning Browning's work meant that no BHP's were available for sale in the US until after WW2 really gives the 1911 a big head start on the High Power. Shooters are a conservative lot for the most part, and something that worked for almost 40 years before the BHP entered the market would tend to have an edge. Add to that the familiarity of two generations of mass-draft soldiers from WW1 and WW2 with the 1911 and I think the 1911's status was set before the Browning could be purchased in the US.
Also, I don't think a double-stack BHP in 45 ACP would, necessarily, have been a winner. The HP-35 feels great in the hand, but widebody it with 45 ACP and I don't think it would feel as well (but willing to give it a try if someone were to start making them today
).The Canadians lost World War 2???
The BHP was the preferred pistol of our Canadian and British allies, and not something I'd really associate with the Nazis (they kept the factory running, but it's not like it was a P-38 or a Luger in the popular imagination and such). So I don't think that is really it.
ALL that said, I'm pretty much with TNT -- I'd love if folks like Kimber, Springfield, etc. started cranking out a product line of High Powers are elaborate and varied as the 1911 choices we have in the market today.
In the absence of such, I'm just going to have to "settle" for getting a Yost-Bonitz SRT package on my HP Standard, I think, to show the die hard 1911 guys I know that a Browning can be absolutely drool worthy as well.
HorseSoldier
New member
It was simpler than that -- Browning was designing a pistol to compete for a French military contract. I don't think he had any particular fondness for the 45 ACP round -- he designed the 1911 to fire that round because it was the US spec for the contract he was involved in competing for. The French specs were for a 9mm, so that design was in 9x19mm. Browning also made 32 ACP and 38 Auto pistols, 25 ACP pocket pistols, and whatnot, so I don't think you can really claim he was committed to the best terminal ballistics possible and such.
As far as the magazine is concerned, Browning is said to have been opposed to the double-stack high cap mag, feeling a 7-8 round single stack was adequate. The 15 round 9mm magazine (the original French requirement) was designed by Saive since JMB was not interested in pursuing that aspect of the design (and later switched to 13 rounds by Saive in the finalized form).
roger-ruger
New member
R.p.???
Musketeer - Thats Republic of The Philippines or just Philippines. HOnestly, I do like the HI-Power, the ergonomics, and for its renowned reliability. Whats holding me getting one of these is the availability of parts and accessories here in my country.
Musketeer - Thats Republic of The Philippines or just Philippines. HOnestly, I do like the HI-Power, the ergonomics, and for its renowned reliability. Whats holding me getting one of these is the availability of parts and accessories here in my country.
Western European militaries didn't go for the .45 ACP. While the French did not end up buying the P-35, it was made for a French military contract order. I think it was chambered in both 7.63x25 (.30 Mauser) and 9x19.
I like the idea, double stack or not. That part I don't care about. However, the grip would have to be lengthed while the chamber and slide expanded. That would change the famed handling qualities.
That said, I do wish that custom gun makers would do for the HiPower what they did for the 1911. A hybrid would also be nice.
Mike Irwin
Staff
"The caliber - maybe JBM realized that theres not much terminal ballistics differences the 45acp has over the 9mm."
No, John Browning realized that in Europe the 9mm was pretty much the king of the handgun cartridge, and that if he wanted Europeans to use the thing (remember, he was working for FN then) it was going to have to be in 9mm.
No, John Browning realized that in Europe the 9mm was pretty much the king of the handgun cartridge, and that if he wanted Europeans to use the thing (remember, he was working for FN then) it was going to have to be in 9mm.
Well said, Mr. Irwin.
It's good to remember that any successful firearms designer, even a genius like the saintly John Browning, is in business to SELL STUFF. Whether or not they think a concept is good, they're likely to go with it if they think it will sell.
I'm not saying the High Power is a bad design. I am saying that Browning's motivation in designing it was to Give the Customers What They Want-- just as it was when he designed the M1911.
It's good to remember that any successful firearms designer, even a genius like the saintly John Browning, is in business to SELL STUFF. Whether or not they think a concept is good, they're likely to go with it if they think it will sell.
I'm not saying the High Power is a bad design. I am saying that Browning's motivation in designing it was to Give the Customers What They Want-- just as it was when he designed the M1911.
HorseSoldier
New member
Are the Charles Daly High Power clones not offered for sale in the Phillipines?
BHP evolved
If only--probably the closest to what you dreaming of is the CZ 97 in 45ACPm however the major disadvantage of a Hicap 45 is the weight and that is why the useable 45's are single stack and the 9mm are hicap. Overly simplified but that's my motto, KEEP IT SIMPLE.
If only--probably the closest to what you dreaming of is the CZ 97 in 45ACPm however the major disadvantage of a Hicap 45 is the weight and that is why the useable 45's are single stack and the 9mm are hicap. Overly simplified but that's my motto, KEEP IT SIMPLE.
roger-ruger
New member
Horsesoldier - Could not find CD Hi-power at least in my area. Weve got FEGs and BHP. But still the same, no accessories, no parts