What I learned about fighting rifles playing paintball...

[Dave3006]

If you haven't done it yet, you owe it to yourself to play paintball. I consider it one of many drills that you need to train for a SHTF situation. It is not perfect, it is a game. But, if taken in the right context along with training at good tactical schools, match shooting, physical conditioning ect.. you will be better prepared. Here is what I have learned related to selection of a rifle for fighting:

1. Your rifle makes only a small difference whether you live or die. Luck and good tactics are the key. It will blow your mind on how fast you get dead.

2. Accuracy - Is a big deal. I hear people say that a gun has to only hit a "man sized target". However, there usually are NO man sized targets out there. EVERYONE Hides behind something. You have only parts of bodies, legs, and heads to shoot at. An accurate gun allows you to shoot and get behind cover faster so you don't die.

3. Reliability - If your gun does not work, you don't advance. You can't defend. You are in big trouble. When you crawl and dive your gun gets dirt and mud in it. It is not enough to work clean. It has to work dirty.

4. Penetration - People hide behind things. If my paintballs only penetrated their cover... A rifle that penetrates better is best. Now I know why soldiers used AP in WWII.

5. Magazine capacity - Believe it or not. This is not that big of a deal. Most of the fighting happens in bursts of activity. A more important thing is the speed that I can reload. I don't want to get caught with an empty gun while I am reloading behind cover.

6. Gun size/Weight - I could care less how much the gun weighed if it would accomplish the above tasks. Most people need to lose a few pounds more than their weapon needs to be lighter.

Paintball is not a perfect representation of fighting. Only fighting is a real representation of fighting. It is just one of many imperfect drills. If you have only been to the BIG dollar schools (Gunsite, Frontsight, ect..) You need to try some sort of training where your opponent is trying to make you dead.

 

[KPS]

I agree Dave.I spent 2 years playing tournement paintball.Very addicting and physical.It teaches you alot about fighting under pressure.I had to give it up though because my paintball guns were costing more than my firearms.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Actually, you sound like you learned quite a bit.

Deaf

 

[Ceol Mhor]

I definitely agree, Dave. One thing you left out, though, is better understanding the confusion of a combat area. It's no easy task to first of all spot hiding people, and secondly figure out which team they're on. And friendly fire sucks.

 

[MAKOwner]

Even better is playing Airsoft. Playing with a very accurate copy of a M4 or MP5 or whatever your choice is (they make a crapload of different guns), is way better than playing with a goofy paintball gun. The automatic electric guns AEGs are badass. Guns have 3 shot burst, full auto, etc. They shoot hard plastic 6mm bbs that hurt like hell and shoot straighter/better than paintballs. $300 will get you a nice one. Check out www.airsoftzone.com and www.planetairsoft.net and such for some info. www.airsoftpro.net has some prices. Ignore all the cheap junk though, there are alot of toys that are cheap junk. Look strictly at the AEG rifles ($250ish plus), and gas powered pistols ($150ish). They're awesome...

 

[Destructo6]

You forgot tunnel vision. It's hard to stay aware of the area around you when you're concentrating on your battle with that other guy. Meanwhile, someone backdoors you.

I'd have to disagree on points 5 and 6. When you're laying out 600+ rounds (balls in this case) in ten minutes or less, capacity and reload time are big factors. Also, a lightweight weapon allows you to keep it on target and steady longer. It made a huge difference when I went to a remote bottle setup on my Autococker.

The accuracy deal is significant, though. I remember, back in the days of using crappy rental guns, not being able to hit a guy fifty feet away that was fiddling with his pesonal high-end paintgun. Once he got it back together and working, he popped me immediately. Now that I'm that guy with the cool gun, I try to take pity (two shots instead of ten) on the victims of rentals.

Point number 1 is probably the most startling of all. In one game a particular position might turn into instant death. The next game, that same position can control the whole field. Just dumb luck of where everyone ended up after the initial charge.

BTW, where does everyone play? I mainly play at SC Village in Corona, CA.

 

[yorec]

Playing paintball on a large outdoor field is a VERY good way to find out just what kind of physical condition you are in, and OH! what fun...

 

[Hemicuda]

I play painttball...

and one of ther OTHER things you learn is "your own style"

I started out with the "shoot alot, kill, kill, kill" attitude...

over the years, I learned to pick targets and use strategy AND accuracy...

I have walked onto the field foir an all-day game with 50 paintballs, and walked off with paint left, and 20+ confirmed "kills"...

you can learn alot about how YOU personally work, under stress. which can equate to a better, safer encounter in real life, should you ever end up in one!
I now know, that when the shtf, I will use the pistol, top fight to my rifle, because that is what WORKS for me! and PAINTBALL is what taught me that!

 

[Coronach]

Interesting. I always wondered if they made 'realistic' paintball guns for force-on-force type training, and I don't think they do...but it seems they do make airsofts. Go figure. I knew about airsofts, of cource, but I was unaware that you could safely shoot them at each other.

How realistic are the airsoft's manual-of-arms and ammo capacities? Do you actually eject and insert magazines to reload?

Mike

 

[Dave3006]

Destructo 6, I play mostly at SC Village also. I take my 8 1/2 year old son with me. They let him play and he loves it! We do Judo, Mountain bike, fish, backpack, target shoot ect.. He says paintball is the most fun hands down.

The Airsoft thing sounds cool. I did not mention the tactical things I experienced like tunnel vision and stress because I was just relating it to rifle selection. The overwhelming thing about paintball is that it allows you to EXPERIENCE things. I can read about tactics all day long. Until I go out and try it under pressure, I really have not internalized anything. It is kind of like reading about a glass of wine vs. drinking it. Some of the tactical things burned into my mind come from the mistakes I have made causing me to die on the field. Here is a brief list:

1. Looking over the top of a bunker. Getting shot.
2. Looking from the side of a bunker (better). But, being predictable and getting shot.
3. Advancing just because nothing was happening and getting shot.
4. Relaxing during a lul, looking around, and getting shot.
5. Retreating to a once "friendly area", finding that is occupied by the other team and getting shot.
6. Being too agressive and being to timid. Both get me shot.
7. Not retreating.
8. Picking cover that is lousy. Getting shot. It is amazing how small you can try to become.
9. Panicking when you are outnumbered and they are advancing.
10. Not asking for cover fire when advancing to a bunker. Getting shot.
11. Running and not looking where you are going and tripping.

I am sure there are others. I am so much aware of these things and I make these mistakes less and less. This will make me a better fighter should the SHTF someday. I would not appreciate these things as much just reading them in a book.

 

[Tamara]

How realistic are the airsoft's manual-of-arms and ammo capacities? Do you actually eject and insert magazines to reload?

My airsoft MP5SD is an electric gun. The magazine, which has both button and paddle releases that operate exactly like the real thing's, is just a pellet hopper. The cocking handle moves, but seems to serve no function. The operation of the collapsible stock, diopter sights and the three-position safety is just as on the real McCoy. With its abundance of metal parts and heavy batteries, it even has reasonable heft for a toy gun. You can put a short burst right between a co-worker's shoulder blades from clean across a medium-sized gun store.

My gas-powered Beretta 93R is even more realistic in its operation. The removable magazine holds the pellets and the gas reservoir. The stock and foregrip deploy as on the real gun. The gun fires on semi-auto or three-round burst, with the gas cycling the slide with some authority (you have to fill in the spent brass with your imagination). The gun even field strips like the real one, using the takedown lever.

 

[Bruegger]

I played at SC Village once, about ten years ago. I thought it was in Norco, not Corona? I rented one of the semi-auto "rifles" with a big old hopper on top and had more firepower than 90% of the guys on the field (I think the rest of the guns were pumps?). But I'm sure the technology of the guns has changed quite a bit. Everything's probably full-auto now.

The thing I learned there is it hurts like a son-of-a-gun when you get shot from two feet away while doing house-clearing. At least it hurt the guys that I nailed

As a one-man house-clearing crew, I took out a half-dozen guys defending those houses by running, ducking and rolling around like a crazy-man and blasting away. Not something I'd do in real-life urban combat. And probably due as much to blind luck as skill. And probably not something I'd try to replicate at my advanced age

Maybe I'll join you guys there some time... I'd bring my boy, but he's only four.

Semper fi,
Bruegger out.

 

[buzz_knox]

You can put a short burst right between a co-worker's shoulder blades from clean across a medium-sized gun store.

Ow. Glad I wasn't around then. I bet it was Jay. Shannon doesn't seem the forgiving type.

There is a realistic paintball system for force on force training. It's called Simunitions, and uses real weapons converted to fire cartridges where the bullet is replaced by essentially a high-tech paintball.

 

[SDC]

The only problem with the Simunition set-up is that unless you have a VERY close control over everyone that goes into a scenario, you may just end up with someone with a LIVE firearm playing along. This just happened here in Canada, with the Calgary Police Service. For some reason, someone was able to get into a "fun house" with a live duty pistol (Glock or SIG, can't remember which now), and ended up shooting a fellow officer in the head. A really sh****y way to die, if you ask me, and the investigation is still ongoing.

 

[Coronach]

Yeah, I'm familiar with Simunitions. Potential problems:

1. They're unreliable. I usually get off two shots and my gun jams.

2. They use real weapons, which is both an advantage and a disadvantage, depending on venue

3. The rounds are spendy.

I'm look at this from a regular joe having fun and playing realistic games POV, not that of an agency trainer.

Question re: airsoft-

Do they make guns with realistic magazine capacities, or not?

Thanks,
Mike

 

[Tamara]

Do they make guns with realistic magazine capacities, or not?

Well, they happen to hold many more (couple of hundred in my MP5 and fortysomething in my 93R) but they'll function okay if only loaded with the "correct" amount...

Postscript: Went and checked out the airsoft sites above. It seems that many gas guns, indeed, come with realistic mag capacities. Some of the 1911's even have McCormick-style ambi gas pedals and S&A mag wells!

 

[Dave3006]

When I looked into a simunitions class, the price was about $500. I instead spent the money on an Autococker paintball gun and tons of accessories. I play once a month. I think this is a better deal for the money. I have taken 4 day classes at Frontsight, TFTT, and an Orange County offshoot of Gunsite for rifle, shotgun, and handgun. They do a good job of teaching weapons manipulation. The house clearing drills are a good introduction. The manditory and next step is some sort of drill against an opponent who resists you. Paintball, simunitions, and Airsoft seem like good choices.

I'll never forget how bad I did my first time out in paintball. I thought my shooting school training would at least make me at least decent. I sucked so bad! I never shot anyone my first 10 games. Now, I get 1-3 kills per game. I don't panic under pressure. No tunnelvision. It is starting to be second nature. I am still learning though...

 

[Cthulhu]

I own a few airsoft guns, so I thought I'd chime in. For close range CQB type simulation, airsoft can be extremely effective and realistic.
As to just how accurate a representation the airsoft guns are versus their real counterparts, I compared a Tanaka H&K USP .40 with my uncle's real USP .40. They have indentical markings, down to the metal serial plate on the dust cover. Field stripped, the two frames polymer look almost indentical. I popped the magazine from the airsoft into the real USP's grip. CLICK! It locked with authority and fit with no slop. Trying the other way showed another perfect fit. Even his tactical light slid on to the AIRSOFT's dustcover rails.
All controls of the gun operate identically to the real thing. It locks open upon firing the last round, and releasing the slide actually chambers the next round, ready for firing.

My gas Glock 26 is also 1:1 for the real thing, and fits a Fobus polymer holster for the 26/27 perfectly, while my gas blowback Desert Eagle .50 is accurate down to the IMI trademarks. A friend of mine has an gas operated MP5A3, with retractable stock and a magazine that holds both 6mm BBs and plastic 9mm casings and ejects them upon firing. It is amazing. Another has a Glock 18 which fires 20 rounds per second on full-auto in a furious effort to cycle itself to pieces (that only happend once though).

In terms of realism, gas blowback are the most accurate models available. The slide or bolt mechanism flies back upon firing, and the BB's scream out of the muzzle with a puff of gas vapor.
Electric guns are easy to recharge since they use batteries rather than gas propellent, but tend to be less durable in the long run. Airsofts, despite being fantastically engineered, are often produced with the poorest materials available. Stock electrics have wiring that is prone to burn through and pot metal gears and bearings that wear out easily. AEGs also tend to be slightly undersized, so that their parts don't drop on to the real thing and vice versa, where as most gas airsofts are 1:1.

While the airsofts tend to be underweight and lack recoil, they are the most realistic and varied weapon replica's available.

 

[T.Stahl]

Dave3006, the points you list are the reason why I prefer a G3 over any other battle/assault rifle.

 

[Poodleshooter]

Unfortunately for we shooters, paintball removes the only really great advantages that we have: accuracy at range (aimed fire) and weapons familiarity. Most indoor speedball courses have engagement ranges within the range in which point shooting is effective. Anybody can hit a target at that range. The large magazine capacities also lend an edge to non-shooters. Spray and pray combined with large magazine capacities and short range really help beginners. The most valuable skill you can have is situational awareness. I think that, and the chance to practice room clearing tactics are the best uses for paintball. Some of these issues do make you stop and think when you consider the FBI's "average range for gunfights" statistic of 7 yds....