Jeff Thomas
New member
Friends, I just returned from the main 'First Monday' event in Phoenix today. It was held at our main public library in Phoenix, and the most notable attendees were Arizona Attorney General Janet Napolitano and Phoenix Police Chief Harold Hurtt.
As reported elsewhere on TFL, the organizer of this event (CAPGV - see www.cap-gunviolence.org ) worked hard to prevent pro-RKBA folks from attending. I believe that their effort was unsuccessful because (1) it made the 'Forum' an obvious fraud, (2) Alan Korwin, a noted author, made public their refusal to admit him, and (3) they couldn't begin to fill the place! No kidding - I wasn't in the back, so I couldn't get a good count, but I'll bet there were at least 30 empty seats. And, at the beginning of the 'Forum' they played this little game of 'we can only admit 11 more people ...'.
Most of the speakers were focused not upon solutions, but rather, upon reporting there is a problem with gun violence ... a fact I believe most TFLer's can agree with, although we would restate it as a problem with violence, period. Relatively few suggestions for solutions were offered.
I would say there were three anti-self defense zealots on the panel ... a trauma surgeon, a pediatrician and a woman from the Children's Action Alliance. More about them later.
Here is the main thing I want to communicate right now. Many of these people are sincerely concerned about the problem ... this is something on which we can all agree. However, most of these folks are (1) fast and loose with the 'facts', (2) accept illogical solutions, (3) are insensitive to any infringements on the RKBA and (4) either aren't willing to invest the time, or simply don't have the intellectual horsepower to understand this issue. We can help them.
One way we don't help them, or help ourselves, is by making what they see as radical RKBA arguments. Specifically:
1. There were two RKBA supporters that hurt our side when they spoke. One fellow cited the U.S. State Department document that lays out the 60's U.S. agreement with the U.N. regarding confiscation of firearms. They laughed at the guy. Now, I've seen some evidence that this exists, and I recognize the impact of international anti-self defense efforts (see www.iansa.org ). But, in a forum like this, you and I look like fools when we raise such arguments. The same thing happens when we raise the spectre of genocide and Nazi's ... there is a lot of truth to those positions, but with anti's and even fencesitters, they dismiss you and I immediately, as nutcases, if we make such arguments. Don't do it.
2. Along the same lines, there was another fellow who extolled the virtues of the Bill of Rights, and of course, specifically the Second Amendment. He was absolutely right. However, in the context of a discussion about 'gun violence', he sounded like a kook. Honest. The Second Amendment carries little to no weight with most people. We need to quit relying on it for discussions with fencesitters and anti's.
So, what can you say in a discussion like this? In a very gentle, essentially sneaky way, make them reexamine their premises. Confuse them by making them confront reality with logic. One fellow simply asked them to 'help' him by explaining how licensing and registration reduces crime, and to cite scientific studies that prove that fact. No one on the panels could do it. Napolitano weakly offered that the DOJ web site has data on how 'successful' the Brady Law has been, ... but when he asked about the study recently published in JAMA that shows no effect from Brady on violent crime, she could only sputter that there were 'problems' with that study.
A really brilliant and brave comment was made by a fellow whose 14-year-old son had attempted suicide with a gun (and, fortunately, failed). They had made a major point of suicide and guns, and this fellow pointed out how suicidal people will simply substitute other means when guns aren't available. Also, he pointed out high suicide rates in other countries, such as Japan where guns are not readily available.
So, my humble suggestion is that we all do our best to get smarter in this debate. We owe it to ourselves, our country and our kids. Don't make radical arguments in such forums ... they may be right, but they hurt you and hurt the cause. Gently force others to reexamine the differences between reality and their view of it. Keep coming across as a 'voice of reason'. Most of these folks, including some anti's, can be encouraged to put their brains into gear.
Thanks. And, I'd be interested in hearing what others experienced today.
Regards from AZ
[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited October 02, 2000).]
As reported elsewhere on TFL, the organizer of this event (CAPGV - see www.cap-gunviolence.org ) worked hard to prevent pro-RKBA folks from attending. I believe that their effort was unsuccessful because (1) it made the 'Forum' an obvious fraud, (2) Alan Korwin, a noted author, made public their refusal to admit him, and (3) they couldn't begin to fill the place! No kidding - I wasn't in the back, so I couldn't get a good count, but I'll bet there were at least 30 empty seats. And, at the beginning of the 'Forum' they played this little game of 'we can only admit 11 more people ...'.
Most of the speakers were focused not upon solutions, but rather, upon reporting there is a problem with gun violence ... a fact I believe most TFLer's can agree with, although we would restate it as a problem with violence, period. Relatively few suggestions for solutions were offered.
I would say there were three anti-self defense zealots on the panel ... a trauma surgeon, a pediatrician and a woman from the Children's Action Alliance. More about them later.
Here is the main thing I want to communicate right now. Many of these people are sincerely concerned about the problem ... this is something on which we can all agree. However, most of these folks are (1) fast and loose with the 'facts', (2) accept illogical solutions, (3) are insensitive to any infringements on the RKBA and (4) either aren't willing to invest the time, or simply don't have the intellectual horsepower to understand this issue. We can help them.
One way we don't help them, or help ourselves, is by making what they see as radical RKBA arguments. Specifically:
1. There were two RKBA supporters that hurt our side when they spoke. One fellow cited the U.S. State Department document that lays out the 60's U.S. agreement with the U.N. regarding confiscation of firearms. They laughed at the guy. Now, I've seen some evidence that this exists, and I recognize the impact of international anti-self defense efforts (see www.iansa.org ). But, in a forum like this, you and I look like fools when we raise such arguments. The same thing happens when we raise the spectre of genocide and Nazi's ... there is a lot of truth to those positions, but with anti's and even fencesitters, they dismiss you and I immediately, as nutcases, if we make such arguments. Don't do it.
2. Along the same lines, there was another fellow who extolled the virtues of the Bill of Rights, and of course, specifically the Second Amendment. He was absolutely right. However, in the context of a discussion about 'gun violence', he sounded like a kook. Honest. The Second Amendment carries little to no weight with most people. We need to quit relying on it for discussions with fencesitters and anti's.
So, what can you say in a discussion like this? In a very gentle, essentially sneaky way, make them reexamine their premises. Confuse them by making them confront reality with logic. One fellow simply asked them to 'help' him by explaining how licensing and registration reduces crime, and to cite scientific studies that prove that fact. No one on the panels could do it. Napolitano weakly offered that the DOJ web site has data on how 'successful' the Brady Law has been, ... but when he asked about the study recently published in JAMA that shows no effect from Brady on violent crime, she could only sputter that there were 'problems' with that study.
A really brilliant and brave comment was made by a fellow whose 14-year-old son had attempted suicide with a gun (and, fortunately, failed). They had made a major point of suicide and guns, and this fellow pointed out how suicidal people will simply substitute other means when guns aren't available. Also, he pointed out high suicide rates in other countries, such as Japan where guns are not readily available.
So, my humble suggestion is that we all do our best to get smarter in this debate. We owe it to ourselves, our country and our kids. Don't make radical arguments in such forums ... they may be right, but they hurt you and hurt the cause. Gently force others to reexamine the differences between reality and their view of it. Keep coming across as a 'voice of reason'. Most of these folks, including some anti's, can be encouraged to put their brains into gear.
Thanks. And, I'd be interested in hearing what others experienced today.
Regards from AZ
[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited October 02, 2000).]