What HE said

[paratrooper]

I work with a former Marine Corporal . One day we were sitting around talking about hitting a target far away . Not really sniper stuff but I guess it would fit there too . I told him that I saw on History Channel (or one like that) about a new weapon used by snipers . The M-24 "I Think" . The bad side was that they lost the ability to do 1,000 yard shots but the trade off was worth it for some reason or another . Although not a sniper or even trained as one he was somewhat knowledgable on the subject mainly because he paid a lot of attention to the little bit of exposure he did have to that particular discipline . I asked him that if he were asked to go out and "eliminate" someone which weapon and round would he prefer . Without a seconds hesitation he said "Remington 700 with a Winchester .300 Mag." .
My first question to this forum is : Can this combo produce reliable hits at 1,000 yards ? Next question: Can this round be "beefed" up to go a bit farther ? Next question: Is there a better combination than his choice ? I'm not looking to "whack" anyone . Just hit targets a long way off . We're talking varmints . Coyotes , prarie dogs and the like . Thank you .

 

[Handy]

When people talk about Rem. 700s and amazing target rifles, they are usually talking about using a 700 action as the basis for a custom gun with a special barrel, trigger, stock etc.

.300 Mag at 1000 yards? Of course. A Marine just made a longer lethal shot than that with a .308 in Iraq. .300 just makes it easier.

 

[Cal4D4]

I think the built in caliber/range limitation is when does the bullet go trans sonic. At this point accuracy falls dramatically. Don't know is this is true of the old large caliber buffalo guns.

 

[dfaugh]

Pretty much anything

will reach 1000 yards, including a .22(if you don't mind 40 ft of drop!)...However, as mentioned you lose (some)accuracy if the bullet goes transonic along the way...IMHO the only(well maybe not the ONLY) thing better than a .300 Win Mag (Short of going to a .50 BMG) is the .338 Lapua mag...Heavier bullet (a bit better in the wind) and IIRC doesn't go transonic until about 1400 yards...I want an Armalite AR-30 in .338 LM, as they are "reasonably" priced, relative to the performance (a .50 would be cool, but $5000 or so for a Barrett is stretching it for me, in the "let's get real" sense.)
I'd just like to try long range target shooting with a capable gun, although there's no ranges around here to shoot more than 200 yards.

 

[FirstFreedom]

My understanding is that in the 1950s/60s, thereabouts, the .300 winmag ruled the roost in 1,000 yard competitions, but that over time, people were looking for similar performance with less recoil; and they found it; hence the popularity of lower-caliber rounds like the 6.5-.284 Win. It's not gonna pack the wallop of a .30 cal bullet at that range (at any range), but it's got a nice trajectory and would still EASILY kill a man at 1K yards (not wearing body armor/flak jacket, that is). Even still with SBA, it would likely easily kill a man at that range (a 6.5mm, 140 gr bullet I'm talking about). The tradeoff, of course, is less wind-bucking ability. In stiff winds, or shifting winds, you're better off with a heavier .30 cal (.308, 30-06, or .300 mag), or .338 bullet (.338 winmag, .338 lapua mag), at loooong range for this reason, unless you REALLY know your shiz when it comes to kentucky windage. Even still, if the winds are shifting, it's hard for ANY person, no matter how expert, to know what the wind is doing in the intervening ranges between the shooter and the target, without interim flags or some such, and of course a real sniper in the field does not have this advantage; therefore, the bigger boomers are worth the tradeoff in recoil, not because of their killing power, but because of wind-bucking ability. Trajectory can always easily be compensated for, by the expert marksman who knows his rifle/load and has gear that can both estimate ranges and allow for bullet drop (proper mounts, rings, scopes, etc.). But windage can be a real crap shoot, no matter how good your gear or skill - hence the popularity of very heavy stuff (.338 cals, .408 cheytac, and .50 bmg) for very long range anti-personnel missions.

 

[JohnKSa]

not gonna pack the wallop of a .30 cal bullet at that range (at any range)

Actually, the heavy bullet 6.5mms retain velocity and therefore energy surprisingly well. Even the relatively tame 6.5 round based on the .223 case will beat the .308 for energy and trajectory at extended ranges after the poorer aerodynamics of the .308 have bled off enough velocity.

 

[Bubstang]

I have a friend that has done sniper duty as an ATF agent and he says they group 30-06 in silver dollars at 1000 yds. The scope is pretty amazing and handles some degree of compensation.

 

[JohnKSa]

I have a friend that has done sniper duty as an ATF agent and he says they group 30-06 in silver dollars at 1000 yds.

You have a friend who tells tall tales.

 

[FirstFreedom]

JohnK, you are right, and I knew that; I should have said "pack a wallop" at short range, not at any range or at long range, for the reason you mentioned (retained energy due to better BC)...at least that is true with a 140 gr 6.5 vs a 168 or even 180 gr .308, BUT not necessarily true with a .30-06 or 300 winmag that can hold a 220 gr BT bullet with equivalent BCs. BTW, what is the cartridge called that is .223 with a 6.5 bullet that you mention - what wildcat?

 

[JohnKSa]

what is the cartridge called that is .223 with a 6.5 bullet that you mention - what wildcat?

Well crud! I really messed that up. I was thinking of the 6mm-223 but quoting the specs for the 6.5 Grendel... Sorry about that and thanks for catching my error.

There is a 6.5--223 called the 6.5 TCU, but its specs aren't nearly as impressive as the Grendel.

 

[paratrooper]

The more I hear the more I see I need to spend more money than the idea is worth . Let me amend my question . Let's try about 600 yards with something less than a couple of grand . Would a "hot" .223 in a "better" weapon do the trick ?

 

[mathman]

I have a friend that has done sniper duty as an ATF agent and he says they group 30-06 in silver dollars at 1000 yds. The scope is pretty amazing and handles some degree of compensation.

I don't think this is possible with any caliber/platform...and certainly not a .30-06.

 

[Handy]

It is not possible with any unguided projectile moving through air.

 

[FirstFreedom]

Oh I think it would be quite possible for a kinetic energy round to have 5 shots inside 2":

-at an indoor 1K yard range
-With a custom 50-pound gun (not a shoulder fired contraption)
-With a 4" thick barrel
-Bolted to a steel or concrete table or floor
-Fired mechanically
-With custom-made, tuned ammo

But that ain't what your acquaintance is describing.

Para, for 600 yards, about any of your quality "sniper", "tactical", or "varmint" designated rifles in .308 win can do quite well from Remington, Winchester, Savage, Colt's, Sig, Steyr, Weatherby, CZ, Howa, etc. - .308 is considered a particularly accurate round. But also, for a little less recoil, something in say 7mm-08, .260 rem, or .243 Win could all perform admirably at 600 yards with good rifle, ammo, optics, and shooter. Ditto other popular rounds with more case capacity like .25-06, .270, .30-06, etc. BUT, rifles chambered in .308 win (and sometimes 7mm-08) are the ones from major manufacuters that can be obtained fairly economically in configurations built for accuracy (pillar bedded, glass bedded, fiberglass or laminated stock, free-floated barrel, tuned action, good triggers, heavy, custom, highest-quality barrels - sometimes cryo treated, etc). The economies of scale allow them to sell the mass-produced .308s in really good configs for notsomuch dough. This is not the case with other calibers, where you'd have to spend a lot of cash typically. So something like the Savage 10 FP LE-II in .308 is a lot of gun for the money for that purpose. Although .243 is not quite the windbucker that a 308 is, something like the Savage 12BVSS in .243 would perform quite well with tuned ammo at 600 yards, I should think, if it's not too windy, and a lot easier on the shoulder. No, I'd say that .223 rem and 22-250s (any .22 cal), though capable of extremely good accuracy, and offered in low-priced "tactical" or "varmint" guns of high quality, are NOT going to buck the wind good enough past 300-400 yards. Even a heavyish 77 gr bullet will be thrown off more than you like by even light winds at 600 yards. At least with .243, you can get up to what, 105-110 grain bullets.

So, bottom line, I'd say it sounds like you need to get you a good .308, some reload dies, and work up a load that you rifle likes, get some GOOD mounts, rings, and glass, learn your trajectory and range estimating skills, and go to work. Windage estimating skills will come with practice.

http://www.savagearms.com/10fple2b.htm

And it would probably help you a LOT to attend a local long-range match and start asking questions - don't be shy. Most shooters will be HAPPY to share their opinions on gear, etc.

 

[paratrooper]

Thank you . I think that there is a wide range between varmint and sniper . With sniper weapons you GOTTA hit the target . It makes no sense to crawl for 2 days just to get close enough to see it and have to run like a scalded dawg afterwards and have MISSED it . With varmints it would be good to hit it BUT if you miss ..... oh well . I will start narrowing the list down . Thanks again .

 

[guntotin_fool]

The smallest group five shot's I can find record of is 2.318 at a 1k match in Upper Nisqually range in western Wa state.

This was out of a serious benchrest rifle cal. 6.5 x 284.

These guys are the most dedicated and perfectionist shooters I know. If they are raving and I mean RAVING about a 2.3 group at 1k, there is no way the feds are doing any better.

I have a couple of Savage heavy barrels the model 12bv-ss one in 22-250 and one in 7mm-08 and both have killed prairie dogs at 500+yards. If you get a rifle for 560 bucks that does that, you know it is good money for a good rifle.

 

[30Cal]

Even calculating the elevation isn't a given really. You need to know how temp, humidity and altitude are going to affect the bullet (and 1MoA will matter). You also need to know the exact range to the target (+/- ~30yds). And be able to estimate the amount of lead to use on your target (which would most likely be moving during the 1.5-2.0 seconds the bullet would be spending in transit).

There's a very large set of skills required to make a single shot at long range that you would never ever need to make just about any shot at 400yds or less.

Ty