What Happened?

[garryc]

Back in 1989 I left IPSC shooting after 7 years. I was actually getting pretty good. But marriage will do that to you.

Now I look at it, and it has changed. It seems to be a gaming completion and the word Practical seems to have taken a back seat. The stages are a great deal different than they were.

From what I'm seeing it's all high round count with Hi Cap pistols. 9mm can now make major power? They dropped it from 175 to 160. When I shot the most guns were the 1911 and the K-frame S+W. pistols with 17 rounds so there are few mag changes so they increase the targets to compensate. Really?

I thought about getting back in but with this I don't think so.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The drive to get a competitive advantage led to an equipment war. Practical went away.

So, you can shoot IDPA which is a lower round count and seemingly more Defensive but it's also subject to the competition siren of equipment.

Look at the recent most common gun used - Glock 34s. Hardly anyone carries them. However, there is a move with BUG divisions and CCP to emphasize carry guns. We will see how long that lasts.

All the competitions are games, some were foolish enough to suggest a strong correlation with defensive tactics. That isn't true. As discussed in a T and T thread - they are best used for skills practice of using the gun.

 

[1-DAB]

depends what you are aiming to get out of it. if you want to use it to practice skills and evaluate your gear, then shoot what you have and carry. if you want to win, then you better take a look at what others are shooting and copy. i shoot what i have, i'm too old and slow to compete at the higher levels.

 

[RickB]

Some will point out that USPSA/IPSC allows you to shoot just about any gun you want, and if you want to approach the courses if fire in your own form of "tactical", you can. You won't win, but you're not required to do what results in the best score.
IDPA enforces a single set of tactics, and you are limited in what you can do within that framework. Some feel that if the game's tactics are too far from what they would prefer to do, it's bad "training".
I just play along with what everyone else is doing, and don't ask why!

 

[T. O'Heir]

Both IPSC and IDPA are and always have been nothing more than shooting games. That started the instant somebody said "I'm a professional shooter." and manufacturers found there was money to be made. That was prominent in 1989 too.

 

[1-DAB]

i've only shot IDPA. yes, there is a rule book, and they do keep score, and there are winners. i know i'll never be good enough to compete with the very best, but that doesn't keep me at home. i go out every month and take part. i do my best, have learned a lot (both about how to shoot on the clock at different distances and body positions, and about what kind of gun works best for me for daily carry). and i'm getting better with some practice of my own when i have time.

so, yeah, you can pooh-pooh these as 'just games', but you can also derive some good info from them, and spend some time with like minded people and watch them get better over time too.

golf courses are full of players who will never have a PGA card, but they go out anyway and 'play' for their own purposes.

 

[g.willikers]

garryc's complaints are common ones.
So what if the games (and they surely are games) aren't exactly what you would do if you were King.
Where else can you find such a choice of inexpensive matches, full of neat props and targets, that a bunch of very nice folks have provided for you?
If you want to run the stages another way than the proscribed version, no one will complain as long as the safety rules aren't violated.
You'll get lots of penalties and a lousy score, but just do it your way and enjoy a full day of good shooting and good company.
And practice what ever you want.

 

[Don P]

I see the OP's point. Just before the World Shoot in Frostproof our (my home not Frostproof) range had set up stages for our local USPSA match and with that they set up some stages according to IPSC rules using their target and shooters had to follow the IPSC rules. In today's world IPSC and USPSA shooters are using the same type firearms and shooting gear. Things have changed, double stack 1911's shooting 38 super and magazines holding 29- 30 rounds. Many folks shooting 40 S&W double stack 1911's and using magazines holding 24 rounds.
I shoot a 1911 single stack in 9 mm minor. I shoot against myself so I could care less that some folks choose to shoot a $3-4,000 race gun drawing from a $200 holster along with $200 worth of magazine pouches holding $3-400 worth of magazines. I guess it all comes down to what you want to get out of shooting competition. Slinging lead, comradery and seeing some good same minded folks on a regular basis.

 

[garryc]

I get all that. What I want to know is if it became filled with gear snobs. You know, guys that have all the fancy gear and tend to group up with others who are the same, and look down on the guy with a plain 'ol pistol. These things tend to grow into that.

Old story from years ago:

A friend of mine and me went to a trap range. He had a Winchester 37a and I had a field Winchester 1300, both hunting guns and kind of beat. Most of the other guys had these expensive doubles.

We kicked their butts.

The told us we didn't need to come back.

Gear snobs. Can't have a hick kid with a $75 shotgun kicking the guy with the $3000 shotgun's butt.

 

[BillM]

USPSA---Sure, there are $5,000 race guns in Open Division, and the stages
have become less scenario based and more run-n-gun, but there are plenty
of people "shooting what they got"---and I've never met a bunch of people
that were LESS "snobby".

If you want to shoot something with very little "equipment race", try
Single Stack division, or maybe Production. I've shot all divisions at
one time or another. Currently flogging a Tanfoglio 40 cal in Limited,
wife's is a M&P 9 Pro, shooting Limited minor.

 

[1stmar]

I competing until 96', it was an equipment race then too. Doesn't sound like much has changed to me. Back then it was red dots and comps. Always changing the number of ports on the comp or to a different red dot. I only shot limited, still a bit of an equipment race but I was using iron sights. So as long as I was improving my confidence, gun handling and shooting capabilities it was worth it. At some point I decided I didn't want to spend 8-10 hrs (traveling to different states competing) for a grand total of 5 min of actual shooting. Just had better things to do with my time. It's a good sport and a lot of good equipment comes out of it. IMO you can't train for defensive situations through any shooting scenario. It will never mimic real world if you are unfortunate enough to need it. So best have high confidence, good gear and skills and a calm presence. Most of all of which you can get from uspsa.

 

[garryc]

So best have high confidence, good gear and skills and a calm presence.

Got all that, and a real confidence in my ability to see and avoid danger. I am an expert at reading people and their subtle hints.

Calm presence, yeah I got that.

23 years in corrections gives you all that.

 

[Don P]

I get all that. What I want to know is if it became filled with gear snobs. You know, guys that have all the fancy gear and tend to group up with others who are the same, and look down on the guy with a plain 'ol pistol. These things tend to grow into that.

To a degree yes. I have seen the better shooters look down on the less skilled shooter. At our range the match director will put the new shooters with us (my) squad. We are a friendly bunch and do all we can to make the new shooter welcome and do all we can to walk them through the match. We are made up mostly of U,D,C, shooters and I believe 1 B shooter.
We want the new shooter to return for the next match, the only way to grow the sport
Something from the past , one of the guys that shoots with us some 2 years ago had the misfortune of being on the squad with what we could call (the super squad) and the comments made during that match had him not return for some time until he met up with us.
Our match director found all this out too much later and stated that had he known about it during the match the folks involved would at the least been DQ'ed for un-sportsman like conduct.
It truly sucks but it happens

 

[RickB]

I'm more familiar with the "taping targets and helping-out hurts my score" crowd, than any sort of snobbery.
More than once, I remember being at the range for match set-up on Saturday morning, in preparation for a Sunday match, and hearing guys practicing on one of the other ranges.

 

[garryc]

Well Don it's not the skill I'm talking about. Of course those guys are inexcusable as they don't remember standing in those shoes themselves at one time.

I'm talking about the guy that say, "I can buy better stuff than you so I can look down my nose at you." The same kind of ego based crap you see all the time.

Of course buying fancy crap does not make you Brian Enos any more than buying an Indy car makes you Mario Andretti.

I remember a guy that built his own 1911 from a G.I. gun. It still had the G.I. sights on it. He would hand you your hat with that gun. Seeing him beat guys with Gold Cup's and Clarke guns was really funny. We had another guy that would shoot like that with a Security Six.

 

[zincwarrior]

I'm more familiar with the "taping targets and helping-out hurts my score" crowd, than any sort of snobbery.
More than once, I remember being at the range for match set-up on Saturday morning, in preparation for a Sunday match, and hearing guys practicing on one of the other ranges.
__________________

Yes, they can be a scourge. They are closely related to the "I'm too busy flapping my lips to actually help with anything," crowd.

Yes there are serious race guns in USPSA. However, at least in my club you have a substantial number of shooters who shoot in both USPSA and IDPA (me included), with the same equipment-in Production. Its much less of a race. Everyone is pretty friendly and I've not noticed any difference between the two groups in that regard.

 

[Don P]

I'm talking about the guy that say, "I can buy better stuff than you so I can look down my nose at you." The same kind of ego based crap you see all the time

Most are too busy patting themselves on the back. Fortunately I have seen the above as far as equipment goes.Get back in the sport and have some fun. Its always great when they get out shot buy a guy with a plain Jane run of the mill gun. Shuts them up in a hurry

 

[zincwarrior]

Indeed.

Remember, you don't actually have to compete head to head with the race gun crowd. I'm gifted in knowing I'm never a contender for the win () so I am not actually competing with them. I can ooh and ahh at their race gun, watch as they do wind sprints, go tape while they talk, and enjoy my own shooting.

Now if you're looking to shoot your CC piece and its smaller, I would direct you towards IDPA more. They have some specific classes for that and the stages are a little more conducive (lower round counts etc.)

 

[g.willikers]

Once upon a time, before there were so many equipment categories to ostensibly level the playing field, there were just two such categories - Open for the race guns, and Limited for everything else.
There was no particular type of gun that dominated either division.
Folks brought all kinds of stuff, mostly what they used the most and were good with.
Makes sense - the gun you shoot the most is the one you shoot the best.

 

[garryc]

I'd do it for fun partly, but partly not. I am fully aware that this does not equal real situations or real training. That being said, it does have some value.

Right now I train by myself and you know you really don't push yourself beyond your comfort zone. I would like a stimulus to push me some, beyond what I'm accustomed to.

In my profession as a corrections officer the most likely scenario in which I would have to use a weapon is on a transport. Especially to or from a hospital at the hospital. That would be in a populated environment. That would be an escape, an assisted escape or someone seeking to extract some revenge.