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What exactly makes a gun a C&R?
- Thread starter EdInk
- Start date
A gun is a C&R item either because it is over 50 years old, or because BATFE says it is.
Except for the 50 year rule, there is no "automatic" C&R definition. A gun or group of guns can be put into the C&R category only by applying to BATFE and defining the gun or group of guns that you believe merit that definition.
The gun(s) need not be old, rare, or even terribly valuable. An example might be "those 25,000 Glocketta Model 99Z pistols made for the Lower Slobovian Air Force in 1983, returned when the LSAF's only plane, a 1917 Spad, crashed."
If BATFE agrees that those LSAF guns derive their value from their collector status rather than as weapons, they will declare them to be in the C&R category.
Jim
Except for the 50 year rule, there is no "automatic" C&R definition. A gun or group of guns can be put into the C&R category only by applying to BATFE and defining the gun or group of guns that you believe merit that definition.
The gun(s) need not be old, rare, or even terribly valuable. An example might be "those 25,000 Glocketta Model 99Z pistols made for the Lower Slobovian Air Force in 1983, returned when the LSAF's only plane, a 1917 Spad, crashed."
If BATFE agrees that those LSAF guns derive their value from their collector status rather than as weapons, they will declare them to be in the C&R category.
Jim
Cheapshooter
New member
I can't quote exactly, but besides the 50 years old it's something like: A significant portion of it's value is derived from a historical person, place, or event. Or something like that. I think that clause is what can bring in things like East German Makarovs, CZ 82s, and the Yugo SKSs.
Ignition Override
New member
Many postings have stated that the P.R. China has never furnished any production dates for the older Chinese SKS, therefore allowing the BATFE to exclude these rifles.
The SKS types owned by most of us appear to be fairly new.
The BATFE has appeared to obscure definitions of many weapons categories, in order to retain the power to use random and arbitrary definitions.
Their ultimate purpose of bureaucrats is always to exercize the power to randomly enforce whatever the political winds dictate. After all, who appoints the top Administrators of various branches?
The SKS types owned by most of us appear to be fairly new.
The BATFE has appeared to obscure definitions of many weapons categories, in order to retain the power to use random and arbitrary definitions.
Their ultimate purpose of bureaucrats is always to exercize the power to randomly enforce whatever the political winds dictate. After all, who appoints the top Administrators of various branches?
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carguychris
New member
Here's exactly what the ATF says.I can't quote exactly, but besides the 50 years old it's something like: A significant portion of it's value is derived from a historical person, place, or event.
Here's a link to the ATF C&R list.1.) Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof;
2.) Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and
3.) Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this category may be established by evidence of present value
and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector’s items, or that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less.
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-11/atf-p-5300-11.pdf
Cheapshooter
New member
Here's exactly what the ATF says.
Thanks, I was too rushed to look it up and quote it exactly yesterday. I knew it was something close to what I said
The law gives the department head (Secretary of the Treasury in the original GCA 68; the Attorney General currently) the authority to define a "curio or relic". The department head has delegated that authority to BATFE, and BATFE has promulgated the rules you see on their web site. They have full authority; they could make it all guns or no guns, 50 years or 5 years or 500 years or no years, or anything they want.
The usual reason for requesting a determination of whether a given item is a C&R is that someone has, or will be able to acquire, some items he feels fit the definition in the rules and wishes to be able to sell/transfer them to collectors without going through a dealer. It is usually not worth the delay and bother to request a ruling on a single gun, but if an importer has a substantial number (those 25,000 LSAF pistols), the C&R ruling can reduce the shipping costs and transfer fees for his collector customers.
Jim
The usual reason for requesting a determination of whether a given item is a C&R is that someone has, or will be able to acquire, some items he feels fit the definition in the rules and wishes to be able to sell/transfer them to collectors without going through a dealer. It is usually not worth the delay and bother to request a ruling on a single gun, but if an importer has a substantial number (those 25,000 LSAF pistols), the C&R ruling can reduce the shipping costs and transfer fees for his collector customers.
Jim
They have to be in their original configuration too. Installing a tapco collapsable stock and detachable 30 rd mag makes it cease to be a C&R.
The C&R FFL is the best $30 you could spend if you like the older stuff.
2010
-50
1960
There are alot of pretty modern guns that will be C&Rs really soon.
The C&R FFL is the best $30 you could spend if you like the older stuff.
2010
-50
1960
There are alot of pretty modern guns that will be C&Rs really soon.
chris in va
New member
Where does the CZ 82 fit into that description?
Cheapshooter
New member
Where does the CZ 82 fit into that description?
or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event.
Just guessing the fall of the former Communist Eastern Block. Probably the samr reason for the Yugo SKS to be C&R.
Where does the CZ 82 fit into that description?
I have read that this is the reason for the CZ 82:
Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest
If you look at the C&R list, many of thr listed firearms specifically state serial numbers. I think that might be an example of political patronage so that well connected peoople in states with otherwise restrictive laws can keep their firearms.
No, it's because the listed firearm is a particular configuration that merits inclusion on the list for a specific reason. A case in point would be the short barreled lever action rifles that Winchester used to produce. They are listed by serial number because of their unique configuration that would, otherwise, cause them to be NFA firearms.
It's important to remember that a more restrictive state or local law is not preempted by C&R status. There's no patronage involved.
I'm talking about guns like this:
That's just a couple examples of guns on the list that are put on there with specific serial numbers. I'm pretty sure that these pistols were only included on the list because of some kind of deal with someone that had some sort of leverage, but that's just my theory.
There are localities that ban or heavily restrict guns to lesser extent than they do C&Rs. Additionally the importation of guns with certain features is allowed if those guns are C&Rs but would not be allowed if they were not.
Maybe I'm just being a cynic, but I can easily imagine the situation where a influential DC councilman was able to get a cheap Spanish .25 put on the list so that their gun was suddenly a C&R and exempt from the ban on guns there due to its collectible status.
Ortgies, semiautomatic, caliber .25, with S/N 10073.
Ortgies, semiautomatic, caliber .32, with S/N 126314.
That's just a couple examples of guns on the list that are put on there with specific serial numbers. I'm pretty sure that these pistols were only included on the list because of some kind of deal with someone that had some sort of leverage, but that's just my theory.
There are localities that ban or heavily restrict guns to lesser extent than they do C&Rs. Additionally the importation of guns with certain features is allowed if those guns are C&Rs but would not be allowed if they were not.
Maybe I'm just being a cynic, but I can easily imagine the situation where a influential DC councilman was able to get a cheap Spanish .25 put on the list so that their gun was suddenly a C&R and exempt from the ban on guns there due to its collectible status.
Aha, ye olde conspiracy theory!
I said earlier, "A gun or group of guns can be put into the C&R category only by applying to BATFE and defining the gun or group of guns that you believe merit that definition." No conspiracy, no corruption, no political pull.
If I ask for a pistol, by serial number, to be made a C&R item, BATFE will (if they choose) declare that pistol, with that serial number, to be a C&R item. Had I asked for all such pistols to be designated, they might do so, but I didn't ask that, only one specific pistol.
(FWIW, the DC ban, recently overturned, made no exceptions for C&R guns, so your hypothetical councilman would have gained nothing.)
Jim
I said earlier, "A gun or group of guns can be put into the C&R category only by applying to BATFE and defining the gun or group of guns that you believe merit that definition." No conspiracy, no corruption, no political pull.
If I ask for a pistol, by serial number, to be made a C&R item, BATFE will (if they choose) declare that pistol, with that serial number, to be a C&R item. Had I asked for all such pistols to be designated, they might do so, but I didn't ask that, only one specific pistol.
(FWIW, the DC ban, recently overturned, made no exceptions for C&R guns, so your hypothetical councilman would have gained nothing.)
Jim
In the case of the CZ 82, the reason it was declared a C&R was due to the fact that, at the time, it was a ComBloc weapon and pretty well impossible to get in the Western world. I believe the same applied to the CZ 52s (and possibly others as well), due to their relative rarity before the fall of Communism. There was a time when collectors were paying as much as $900.00 for a CZ 52.
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Come on people
Look it up, break out a little googlefu
The CZ-82 is listed because the Curator of the West Point Military Academy found the weapon to have significant historical value as a C&R blaa blaa blaa
I forget his name, but a one point I was intending to look him up and email him a thank you card.
Take the case of modified WWII weapons, you have sporterized versions that are said to represent period modifications, but then you have receivers that are C&R due to date, some argue the first, others argue the second, and it isn't definitive until you have a BAFTE letter on it.
Look it up, break out a little googlefu
The CZ-82 is listed because the Curator of the West Point Military Academy found the weapon to have significant historical value as a C&R blaa blaa blaa
I forget his name, but a one point I was intending to look him up and email him a thank you card.
Take the case of modified WWII weapons, you have sporterized versions that are said to represent period modifications, but then you have receivers that are C&R due to date, some argue the first, others argue the second, and it isn't definitive until you have a BAFTE letter on it.