What exactly IS "vigilantism"?

Drjones

New member
SD isn't vigilantism. At least I don't think so.

A third party shooting a perp currently in commission of a crime isn't vigilantism.

Roving gangs of people rooting out evil, exterminating BG's currently in commission of crimes doesn't fit my definition of vigilantism either.

From www.m-w.com :

Main Entry: vig·i·lan·te
Pronunciation: "vi-j&-'lan-tE
Function: noun
Etymology: Spanish, watchman, guard, from vigilante vigilant, from Latin vigilant-, vigilans
Date: 1865
: a member of a volunteer committee organized to suppress and punish crime summarily (as when the processes of law appear inadequate); broadly : a self-appointed doer of justice

Well, if said "member of committee" (being a third party) stops a violent crime in progress, that's not vigilantism either. If the stopping of the crime results in said perps death, too bad, so sad. Wanna beer? :cool:

Anyone?
 

Hkmp5sd

New member
Vigilantism is when a person or group goes out looking for criminal activity and when finding it, takes the role of a LEO and intervenes and taking the role of judge/jury, issues punishment and carries out that sentence.

This is different from self defense in that you are NOT out with the goal of locating and punishing criminals. You happen to be at a place and time where either you or someone else is the victim of the crime and you either defend yourself or intercede to protect another victim.

Our legal system is based on due process. A civilian, not trained and acting in the capacity of a LEO, is more of a hazard than a help if he decides to go do a Charles Bronson imitation. While it makes us feel good whenever the bad guys lose, the civilian is entering into a scene where he does not know what is going on and does not have the training, resources and backup that a sworn LEO brings to the situation. If he dishes out his own form of justice, he is denying the BG his right to trial.

If you desire to fight crime, become a LEO and do it properly. Lynch mobs don't help.
 

45King

New member
The US Supreme Court has defined vigilantism as the act of pursing, subduing, and meteing out of extralegal punishment to suspected criminals. I cannot quote the decision, but the wording is extremely close to exact. Note that it has to be mainly the meteing out of extralegal punishment to qualify as vigilantism.

Self-defense is not legally defined as vigilantism. Only those who subscribe to a leftist or statist political agenda define legitimate self-defense as "vigilantism."
 

Art Eatman

Staff in Memoriam
SFAIK, the first serious group to call itself a "Vigilance Committee" was in Montana in the 1880s. In a mining town, IIRC. Lots of crime, no real law enforcement or protection of the honest citizenry.

The group proved highly successful, catching and hanging quite a few robbers. Some of them, though, began making false accusations and then after hanging these innocents, stole their money. The whole deal degenerated and--again, IIRC--enough fuss was raised that the state government finally got involved and ended the problem.

Afterwards, "Vigilante" was remembered more for the later behavior than the initial good.

I believe the "Plummer Gang" was the group responsible for the misdeeds.

It seems to me that the real problem with a Vigilante group is that of punishment of those they catch. Catching is okay, but the catchee should be turned in to the existing system. If that, then, proves to be ineffective, I have no answer. But I see nothing wrong with the Citizen's Arrest concept.

Another way to put it is that I see nothing wrong with "taking the law into your own hands" insofar as arrest. I don't think it's right to take the law into your own hands insofar as punishment. (I'm not talking about self-defense, here.) Punishment is for the courts.

Art
 

bruels

New member
There were no formal police departments in the United States until about the 1840s when what is now the New York Police Department was formed. Even then the police departments were terribly corrupt because of the officers' allegiance to the political machine in power in the city at the time. Until Theodore Roosevelt became the Commissioner of the NYPD, all it took to become a policeman in New York was to pay a $300 bribe to a city alderman.

Vigilance committees sprang up where people were frustrated with the inability or unwillingness of local law enforcement to deal with corruption and crime. In the sparsely populated West, law enforcement was by necessity a vigilance committee affair. Even when criminals were arrested, it sometimes took a long time for a circuit judge to come to try the case. So, dealing with problem and meting out justice upon arrest was not unusual.

The people who rant that vigilantism is bad forget its historical roots. If the SHTF scenario ever becomes reality as many people on this list plan for, vigilantism will not be far behind.
 
Drjones, if stopping a violent crimes results in the perp's death, too bad? Well, it may be too bad for you as well, either as a murder charge or manslaughter if you used lethal force for a situation where the use of lethal force is not valid legally. You are going to have trouble justifying why you beat a man to death who was simply trying to snatch a purse from an old lady who would not let go. It would be a violent crime, but not one necessarily that would allow for lethal force.

From what I have seen in the papers (not legally binding concepts, of course), vigilantism seems to be viewed as the over-use of force to stop a crime or the inflicting of additional harm on the perp after the crime has been stopped and the perp isn't trying to commit another (like assaulting the heroes who stopped him). For example, it would be very hard to justify shooting some guy because he was dumpster diving in your apartment complex which was an act illegal in your area. Vigilantism often involves bypassing due process and formally or informally providing punishment for the crime after it has stopped.

Also, there is nothing wrong with going out and looking for trouble as a witness. HKmp5sd sort of brought this out. There are a variety of neighborhood watch groups and such who do this exact thing, look for trouble. The difference is that they are only serving the role as witnesses and are not likely to actually intervene unless somebody's life is in peril. Their job is to simply report the crimes to the police in conjunction with being a good witness and recording salient information.

Self defense is NOT a form of vigilantism, nor is defense of life. However, the families of perps often claim otherwise. Years ago, I saw a show where the mother of a kid involved in a gang initiation group home invasion who was killed by the homeowner kept repeating over and over that the punishment for trespassing was not death and that the homeowner had done wrong. Several kids had broken into the house late one night. Hearing the noise, the homeowner grabbed his gun and spotted several youths in the hallway that led from the main living area of the house to the bedroom area which contained himself, his wife, and his 2 kids. He yelled at the intruders to get out. Instead, the advanced on the guy. The 911 recording of the event documented at least twice that the guy ordered the boys out, followed by shouting (the intruders), and then gun shots. He killed the lead boy from a distance of less than 5 feet. The rest scattered. The mother of the dead youth could not understand why the homeowner was not in jail for murder since he killed her unarmed "child." She was quick to note that the homeowner was much larger than her child and could have stopped him by hand. She neglected the fact that her son was one of at least 8 youths in the house at the time and that the homeowner was outnumbered. Of course, the homeowner was never even charged with a crime.

Here it is important to point out that after stopping the youth, the home owner did not then adimister additional gun shots or punishment such as beating. That would have been vigilantism since it would have been after the fact. His acts stopped when the threat stopped...which is self defense.

Contrary to what the mother of the dead youth may think, in many parts of the country, lethal force is considered perfectly legal for "trespassing" in another's home in the middle of the night.
 

Drjones

New member
Double Naught: What I meant was, in a case of SD or the defense of another (intervening in rape) where lethal force IS justified if said use of force results in death of perp, I won't lose sleep.

I'm not talking about shooting a man in the back who is running away after just snatching a purse.

Interesting posts here, esp. about the history of "vigilantism."

Thanks all!
 

Jim V

New member
I am willing to wager that we would see a return to vigilantism here if and when the general population decides law enforcement agencies and courts are not doing their jobs.
 

Waitone

New member
Vigilantism is a time honored American tradition which surfaces every so often when legitimately constituted government (you pick the level) can not OR will not enforce the rule of law. It is human nature to insist on a lawful community and when legitimately constituted government fails at the task members of the community will pick up the slack.

Historical example is the Oklahoma panhandle prior to the inclusion of Oklahoma into the contigious US. No state authority was exercised in the area so the inhabitants implemented their own system. Vigilantism died out after Oklahoma joined the union.

Current example is illegal immigration along the Arizona and New Mexico and Tejas border. For what ever reason the federales refuse to enforce the law in some cases. The situation is sufficiently bad for an Arazona paper to call for the formation of militia units to stop the flow of illegals. Then there is the pesky little problem with Mexican police and army elements exchanging fire with US citizens. Add to that mix drug smugglers and you've got a ripe situation for the reappearance of vigilantism.

Vigilantism is not a dirty word. It is merely the reaffirmation that humans are humans and they will consistently act like humans and if government disapproves, then too bad.

I venture a prediction based solely on my understanding of human nature, we as a country will have a major problem on our hands should the American people come to the conclusion we have a active fifth column in the US working for its destruction and the government refuses to act. Think I'm kidding? Look at the progress we've made in getting our arms around immigration in the last 16 months. NONE.
 

george miller

New member
judge,jury and executioner.ever see charlie bronsons "death wish" movies.great flicks!classic vigilanty.drill the guy after he was ordered several times to stop?if i were in that homeowners place ida probably drilled him after 1 warning.dont know bout you guys(or gals) but someone breaking into my home and running at me is asking for trouble.
 

hdm25

New member
The label "vigilante" is placed on people who take justice (or revenge, but what is justice but society taking revenge for a crime) into their own hands. I've always thought that it was unfortunate that people use it so often in a negative connotation. After all, the government can punish people for imagined crimes and the citizens can't punish people for real crimes? Come on...:confused:
 

Hkmp5sd

New member
There is a difference between punishment and revenge. There has to be a standard applied equally to all otherwise we have anarchy (or the democratic party).

If someone runs a red light and smacks my new car, I may think the "punishment" should be a double tap to the chest and one in the head. The LEO on the other hand may think it only warrants a traffic ticket.
 

jdege

New member
We had vigilance committees in the Carolinas before the Revolution, because, of course, the government wasn't doing its job.

The essence of vigilantism isn't preventing crime, or stopping crimes in progress, but in punishing individuals for crimes that they are believed to have committed after the fact.

It's an attempt to replace the courts, not to replace the police.
 

Art Eatman

Staff in Memoriam
jdege, I think I disagree with your "The essence of vigilantism isn't preventing crime, or stopping crimes in progress, but in punishing individuals for crimes that they are believed to have committed..."

The essence of vigilantism is indeed preventing and/or stopping crime. The point throughout this thread has been that arrest by a vigilance group is a reasonable or rational and legal act. Punishment by a vigilance group is not. Further, that punishment was not part of the original intent of such groups, except as there was no other authority available. Repeat, no other authority available.

For instance: Magic away ALL government employees. Who, then, deals with criminals? Is it not that part of the citizenry who are law-abiding? Until there is some sort of formal "government", are they not acting as vigilance committees? It might be that one group seeks out and arrests wrong-doers, and another group then functions as judge and jury. But that's merely a detail of the organization...

Art
 

jdege

New member
I'm not arguing right and wrong, I'm arguing definitions.

Self defense, defense of others, is not vigilantism.

That's says nothing about whether intervening in a crime in progress is good, bad, justified, or not justified.

It's simply that it isn't included in the definition of vigilantism.

vigilantism

n : the actions of a vigilance committee in trying to enforce the laws

vig·i·lan·te

n: 1.One who takes or advocates the taking of law enforcement into one's own hands.
2.A member of a vigilance committee.

vigilance committee
n.

A volunteer group of citizens that without authority assumes powers such as pursuing
and punishing those suspected of being criminals or offenders.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
 

hdm25

New member
"There is a difference between punishment and revenge. There has to be a standard applied equally to all otherwise we have anarchy (or the democratic party)."


I disagree. Punitive action imposed by a court of law is punishment for a crime by the society on whose behalf the court is (supposedly) acting. It is the revenge of society on the perpetrator of the crime. As for a standard equally applied...in theory, it is, but in practice? I guess you could say that punishments meted out by the law of the land are standardized societal revenge, but it is revenge nevertheless.



"If someone runs a red light and smacks my new car, I may think the "punishment" should be a double tap to the chest and one in the head. The LEO on the other hand may think it only warrants a traffic ticket."


Or, in another society, the thoughts might be different. To use an old favorite, if a Jew in Nazi Germany happened to dump into you and cause you to slip and bust your Aryan behind on the ice, a local Brownshirt might decide that said Jew should take one in the head for his effrontery while you think that it was an honest mistake worthy of no punishment at all.


It all depends on the basic assumptions that one has about society.
 

Hkmp5sd

New member
There is still a difference...

Punishment is a penalty imposed for wrongdoing. If I point a gun at someone and demand their money, I know that should I be caught by the police, there will be a given punishment for that crime. I know that punishment will not be a $5 fine. Nor will it be a seat in the gas chamber.

Vengeance is a retaliatory measure. If someone commits an act I do not like and I want to take revenge on them to avenge the perceived wrongdoing. That is vengeance.

If caught by the police in the above example, the sentence of 5 years in prison would be the punishment given me by the legal system for my act. If I was handed over to the guy I robbed and he decided to decapitate me for that crime, it would be vengeance. It is his method of getting even with me.
 

hdm25

New member
You see it in degrees of severity and whether it is arbitrary or not but it is still the same thing.

Punishments meted out by our (or any) justice system are standardized societal revenge.
 
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