What Enfield?

[Jeffenwulf]

Hello all. Next on my list of purchases is an Enfield in .303. There are several types to choose from and I keep seeing the Ishapore Enfields for sale. Has anyone found them to be inferior or superior to other manufactures? I had planned to stick to something of U.K. manufacture, but I'm not set on that.

I love the looks of the Type 1, but since I like to actually shoot the rifles I buy I think I'm most likely limited to the WWII Type 4 or the Ishapore Type 1. Anyone that collects or has knowledge of these rifles please feel free to educate me before I buy something I shouldn't. Thanks.

-Jeff

 

[wjkuleck]

If you're really intent on shooting a Lee-Enfield, you may want to hold out for the No 4 Mk 2, with its aperture rear sight and action-body-hung trigger.

Note that the No III and the No 4 are very different rifles, though they are based on the same Lee design. The No 4 is not referred to as a "Lee-Enfield," but rather as simply "Enfield."

Regards,

Walt

 

[Tymber]

There's alot of good shooting No1's in VG conditon , so don't count them out too fast , if thats the type that really appeals to you.
My favourites ...
The Savage/Stevens ( Chickopee Falls , Mass.) or the Canadian Longbranch ( Longbranch , Ontario ) No4 Mkl*'s are usually well made and accurate. All depends on they're history , where they've been , ect... but one of these would be worth you're while to at least check out. Both of mine were made in 1943 and are bang-on shooters.
Fit and finish are a step up from the British counterparts ( IMPO ) but we have to remember that Brit factories were under constant threat and attack by Hitler's airforce.
There's also Longbranch rifles made in the '50's during the Korean War and are very sought after.
The No4 Mkll , as mentioned , is a good choice as well since they were made without the urgency or threat as the WW2 rifles. Some can be found unissued and still in the original wrap.

Ishapore factory India made the SMLE ( No1) are are well made . The finish is what some collectors turn their noses up at . They also made the 2A series which are chambered for 7.62nato. Ishapore had a very extensive repair program and repaired all types of Lee Enfield's . Some of these can be rough looking.

Incidently , both the No1 and No4 are correctly called Lee Enfields.
The No1 is designated as the SMLE or ShtLE , where as the No4 is a No4.

Here's a good site for info ; http://enfieldrifles.profusehost.net/

 

[Ozzieman]

I own an Ishapore manufactured 2A1 which is the jungle carbine. The date on the gun is 1966 but I have read that they were manufactured up into the early 70’s.
The one that I have is (by a gunsmith that knows Enfield) in original very good condition.
He measured the head space and from what he can tell the gun has had very few rounds.
I purchased the gun because its one of the only WWII battle rifles (Enfield) that I don’t own and one that I have been looking for. Also the fact that it was in 308 made it much more attractive since I already load 308 for other guns.
When a friend told me it was for sale I picked it up thinking it was one of the modified Enfields made to look like a jungle carbine, he really didn’t know.
I was happy when I found out the original condition and the fact that the gun is made from steel that is much stronger than original Enfield and can shoot NATO rounds safely.
The price was right at $200. It’s a very good shooter even through the sights are made for much younger eyes than mine.
I only use it as a pinker and load light loads are all it will see. The gun is light compared to a 03-A3 and much lighter than a grand so the recoil can be a little high for some people.
I find the gun to be a great gun to shoot and for me 6 inch groups at 100 yards with the original sights I am more than happy.
I did have a case failure shooting this gun which you can see in the reloading section under my name but after looking at the cases closer I had a simple case failure and the gun handled a case head separation by only allowing a little smoke around the bolt.
I would recommend one highly but, and this is a big BUT,,, have any old gun that you don’t know the history of head spaced by a competent gun smith.

Tymber “The finish is what some collectors turn their noses up at”

I agree with what Tymber said, although I like the finish on mine it has very little in common with a real Enfield.

 

[shooter_john]

A deal tha's hard to beat... (but it is a 308)
http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Enf-2A__Enfield_2A_.308_NATO_7.62x51_Rifles.html

 

[Limeyfellow]

I own an Ishapore manufactured 2A1 which is the jungle carbine. The date on the gun is 1966 but I have read that they were manufactured up into the early 70’s.

The 2A1 is not a carbine and is as long as any other Lee Enfield. What it sounds like is you have a chopped down bubba 2a1 that were brought out to represent a carbine and old on the market as a fake. Very common at one time.

The best shooter Lee Enfields would be the No4 Mk2. Many of them went on the surplus market without being fired. They have a beech stock and the trigger mounted from the receiver instead. Some older No4 Mk1s were also converted to this format as No4 Mk1/3 and No4 Mk1/2

Plenty of good No4 Mk1s and No4 Mk1*. These can be anything from fine rifles to part guns put together. The Savage built ones in the US will go for $50-100 more than other No4 rifles due to the US markings on it. Canadian No4 Mk1* are fairly fine rifles. My best Lee Enfield accuracy wise and my go to rifle is one of these. These both have American Black Walnut stocks.

British No4 Mk1s have the old catch release for the bolthead instead of a notch on the North American variant. They made by a number of companies and are fairly good. They normally have a 5-6 rifle groove instead of the N. American 2 groove that was common. In Walnut stocks mainly with some beech and birch later used.

One thing to watch out for is the rear sight. A number of No4s, particularly Savages were issued with the mk2 flip sight that went from 300 to 600 yards and not the graduated sight. Also watch out for the part guns and try to get one with matching serial numbers.

No5 Lee Enfields are the carbines. They have a more stout kick to them, at least double the price of the No4s and stories of wandering zeros, though the later has never been proved. You have to watch out however for a lot of fakes. Many companies in the 50s-70s cut down No1s and No4 rifles into No5s to fool people into buying them.

The No1 Mk3 is the classic. I always like them with the big old 18 inch bayonet stuck on the end. Reminds me of Corp Jones saying "they don't like it up em." Best versions of these are between the war. Australian ones made at Lithgow are particularly liked and they served past ww2 and have a coachwood stock. Other No1 Mk3 all are rather nice, though many are worn. Desired features for collectors tend to be those that still have volley sights and the magazine cutoff on the rifle. They have the old notch and blade sight instead of a peep sight on later Lee Enfields.

Ishapore 2as and 2a1s are 1960s production No1 rifles, specifically made with newer alloys to handle the higher pressures of 7.62mm Nato rounds. The finish on them isn't very good, being some crappy paint, but they are a good go to rifle.

There are a bunch of rarer variants of the Lee Enfield and these would be far less likely to be seen. The likes of the L42a1 sniper rifle is going to put you back $2000-3000 for instance. One thing you might see is a Indian Lee Enfield single shot shotgun, with a wooden plug installed instead of a magazine. These fire British .410 shotgun shells which are shorter than US shells so if you buy one make sure it been reamed out to accept US shells or it gets rather expensive.

 

[wjkuleck]

Great summary, Limeyfellow.

Of all my Enfields, here's my favorite:

'Bout fifty years ago, my first rifle was a No I Mk V...Mom's Gun.

Regards,

Walt

 

[Jeffenwulf]

Wow, that's beautiful. I can see why it's your favorite. That happens to be my favorite look. I do like shooting the old ones, but I only expect reasonable accuracy. As long as it's minute of paper plate at 100 I'm fine. My hunting rifle shoots small groups ... these are just for fun.

 

[Tikirocker]

WJ,

Nice rifle though I would suggest knocking that gloss back with #0000 steel wool for the sake of correct spec and authenticity - they were never glossy; that's the realm of civvy rifles.

 

[wjkuleck]

"Lee-Enfield," but rather as simply "Enfield."

I do apologize for my brain f&rt. Tymber said what I meant to say, to wit, the SMLE/LE distinction.

Sorry .

Abashedly,

Walt

 

[wjkuleck]

knocking that gloss back with #0000 steel wool

There's a story behind that one. It's a 1901 Sparkbrook that started out as an LE Mk 1, then converted to CLLE, then to almost SMLE. You'll note that there's no charger bridge; the charger guide is in two parts, the right side is mounted to the bolt. When the bolt is back, the two sides line up.

The rifle came to me metal only. I found a new SMLE stock in Australia & had Rick Borecky put the two together. He did a marvelous job, particularly in fitting the volley sights on the left side. The darn thing is so pretty, I really don't want to change it. I have a few other LEs and SMLEs to play with, so this one can stay inauthentic .

If it's authentic you want, check this out:

Well, in finish, anyway. This one came to me from New Zealand, where it had been expertly cut back from its original LE Mk I 31" length to the NZ Service Match-legal length of 24" (SMLE length). Some of these rifles were rebarreled with SMLE barrels, but this one has the original barrel. Check out the bolt-mounted safety and the action cover.

Regards,

Walt

 

[Tidewater_Kid]

Beautiful Rifles Walt!

I say get one of each type. I have many Enfields and I'm always on the look out for more.
1948 No1 Mk3* Ishapore

1907 BSA MkI*** and 1942 No4 Mk1 Maltby

TK

 

[Ozzieman]

Limeyfellow is correct, sorry for the miscomunication. I diddnt mean to say that it was a “real” jungle carbine. What I was happy about was that it was built as a “real” 308. Yes it is a copy of the carbine but a very good copy at that. The problem that I had finding a real Lee Enfield was finding one that was in VERY good condition.
I always liked the Jungle Carbine but the price of a real one is outside my price range,,, if you can find one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee-Enfield
Ishapore 2A/2A1 – the last Lee-Enfield
Main article: Rifle 7.62mm 2A1
At some point just after the Sino-Indian War of 1962, the Ishapore Rifle Factory in India began producing a new type of rifle known as the Rifle 7.62 mm 2A, which was based on the SMLE Mk III* and was reworked to use the 7.62 mm NATO round. Externally the rifle is very similar to the classic Mk III*, with the exception of the magazine, which is more "square" and usually carries twelve rounds instead of ten, although a number of 2A1s have been noted with 10-round magazines.
Ishapore 2A/2A1 rifles are made with improved steel (to handle the increased pressures of the 7.62 mm NATO round), and the extractor is redesigned to cope with the rimless round. From 1965-1975 (when production is believed to have been discontinued), the sights were changed from 2000 m to 800 m, and the rifle re-designated Rifle 7.62 mm 2A1.
There are no other differences between the Ishapore 2A and 2A1 rifles, but they are often incorrectly described as ".308 conversions". The 2A/2A1 rifles are not conversions of .303 calibre SMLE Mk III* rifles —they are newly manufactured, and are not technically chambered for commercial .308 Winchester ammunition. However, many 2A/2A1 owners shoot such ammunition in their rifles with no problems, although it must be stressed .308 Winchester may generate higher pressures than 7.62 mm NATO, even though the rounds are otherwise interchangeable.
The Ishapore 2A1 has the distinction of being the last non-sniper military bolt action rifle ever designed and issued to an armed force, and they are becoming increasingly popular with civilian shooters and collectors in the US, UK, and Australia as the supplies of affordable .303 British ammunition fluctuate.

 

[Tikirocker]

I love the looks of the Type 1, but since I like to actually shoot the rifles I buy I think I'm most likely limited to the WWII Type 4 or the Ishapore Type 1.

Jeff,

Why would you not be able to shoot a No1 MkIII? You might want to consider that Australia ( My country ) manufactured and maintained the No1 rifle for both WW1, WW2 and Korea where it served with distinction in the hands of my countrymen. Some of the great snipers of each of these wars were Australian soldiers fielding the No1 MKIII HT sniper rifle with heavy barrel. Any notion that this rifle is not for shooting or not accurate comes from a lack of experience with the rifle or ignorance.

Every week in my country shooters use the No1 MkIII rifle in Service Rifle matches out to 800 yards using only the original peep sights - what many people in other countries don't know how to do is correctly TUNE the No1 rifle which requires a few tricks and a bit of knowledge. I shoot a heavy barrel Lithgow MKIII* for Service Rifle matches myself and it's as accurate as the bloke firing it. If you want a No1 rifle, get one ... it'll be more accurate than you are.

Here's a few of my Enfields ... each one all matching SN's.

1942 Lithgow No1 MKIII* Heavy Barrel ...

 

[Tikirocker]

Continued ...

 

[Jeffenwulf]

You know, there really is something about those Enfields where the wood covers everything up to the muzzle. The #4s don't do anything for me sadly, but the No1 MK3 that Tiki posted and the No1s that Walt and Tidewater posted make me breathe a little faster. I admit it, I'm shallow.

 

[Jeffenwulf]

My 2A came in today. I have to admit that I've fallen deeply in love. I haven't even disassembled/cleaned/shot/anything yet and I already have a new favorite rifle. The stock is a bit short and the sights are average at best, but sometimes all they have to do is look good enough. The bonus is that she's .308 which is easy enough to find locally.