What does it take to make a gun a 1911?

D

Deja vu

New member
a few weeks ago I went out shooting with a a friend of mine and a few of his friends. 3 of them had what I would call a 1911. One was a Taurus in 9mm and the other was a Coonan model b in 357 magnum the last was a S&W in 45

any way a friendly argument broke out as to which if any of these guns are 1911s. I argued that a 1911 is a style of gun and any gun in that style is a 1911 but the guy with the 45 said that to be a 1911 it has to be a 45. My friend that invited all of us out went with the purest mind set and said that a 1911 has to be a colt.

Any way it was a friendly argument and I got to try out the Coonan which is some thing I have wanted to do for a long time.

So what makes a gun a 1911 rather than a 1911 styled gun?
 
C

Chris_B

New member
I argued that a 1911 is a style of gun and any gun in that style is a 1911 but the guy with the 45 said that to be a 1911 it has to be a 45. My friend that invited all of us out went with the purest mind set and said that a 1911 has to be a colt.
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Interesting standpoints. I would like to comment on first things last-

No, 1911s don't need to be Colts :) . As my proof I present original Model of 1911 pistols made by Springfield Armory in March of 1914. Colt granted the government the right to make Models of 1911 in April of 1911, the first being produced in 1914.

I think your friend would be hard-pressed to tell collectors that their 1914 Model of 1911 pistols made by Springfield Armory were not 1911s ;) All original Models of 1911 made before Springfield made them absolutely need to be made by Colt as nobody else to my knowledge was making them! Also to my knowledge the name may be confusing, as the official name was Colt Automatic Pistol, caliber .45, Model of 1911. This does give the impression they were all Colts. This may be were your friend is coming from on that one :)

As for having to be a .45, perhaps for military contract that man has a very good point. However, here's what Colt has to say on their website about other calibers of 1911s. Boldface is mine:

"The .38 Super was introduced in 1929 in the famous Colt Government® Model 1911 auto pistol. At the time of its introduction the .38 Super was the most powerful auto pistol cartridge in the world. Colt is the only major American gun maker who has produced .38 Super pistols. The .38 Super is one of the most powerful and flat-shooting cartridges available for auto-loading pistols."

John Dillinger liked his 1911s in .38 super :) If I were a proof reader for Colt though, I might suggest to them that Colt wasn't making Models of 1911 in 1929, they were making Government Models and M1911A1s ;)

I would agree, the 1911 could be termed a style, although I tend to call them '1911 pattern' because of the two broad major variants, Model of 1911 and M1911A1 that started the whole thing
 
S

SIGSHR

New member
I distinguish between an M1911 copy, even with minor modifications-the Norwegian M1914, e.g.- and
an M1911 "inspired" design-the Ballester Molina, e.g.
IIRC when the the M1911 was officially adopted by the U.S. military the commercial version was advertised as the Colt "Government Model", initially available in 45 ACP then in 1929 in 38 Super. I think strictly speaking in WWI the U.S. did not "adopt" the Colt New Service or S&W N-Frame Hand Ejector.
It adopted the "US Revolver, Model of 1917" made by Colt and S&W. That's how they were marked and they were modified to meet military specifications.
 
H

HisSoldier

New member
Colt is the only major American gun maker who has produced .38 Super pistols.
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When was that written? :)

It seems like a question with blurred lines in the answer. Most of us would agree that a double stack "1911" isn't one, nor one with a plastic frame. Some will disagree though.

Maybe the answer remains the perview of the buyer, and anyone arguing the point is taking on too much.
 
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Chris_B

New member
The Model of 1911 was adopted by the US War Department specifically to replace the .38 revolver, in early 1911

An interesting question is: did the War Department still issue the revolvers, despite that? I bet they did
 
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Chris_B

New member
Quote:
Colt is the only major American gun maker who has produced .38 Super pistols.
When was that written?
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Gotta ask Colt my friend. Them's their words ;)

Since they got when they made Models of 1911 wrong, they could easily be wrong about that, too! :D
 
C

Chris_B

New member
Where did Colt get the dates they made M1911s wrong?
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It's a naming convention :) They say it was the Model 1911, in 1929, in that snippet from their website

But in the 1920s, there were a series of improvements that results in the "Improved model of 1911". Collectors today call them "Transition models". They look like M1911A1s

The change to 1911A1 pattern was done by 1926, along with an official name change to Pistol, Automatic, Caliber .45, M1911A1. I can find no reference to Colt continuing to make Models of 1911 in 1929

Lots of odd discrepancies even in the teens with naming. Springfield sometimes referred to the Models of 1911 they made as ".45 Gov" pistols
 
J

James K

Member In Memoriam
To be correct, the only pistols that can be called Model 1911 or Model 1911A1 are those made by or on contract for the U.S. armed forces. Those terms are government model designations, not generic terms for anything that sort of maybe in some way kind of resembles one or the other.

Calling modern clones Model 1911's is like calling a .30-'06 Remington 700 a Model 1903 Springfield.

Jim
 
R

rsxr22

New member
So the members here never refer to 1911A1's as 1911's?? or even better 1911 clones? I find that hard to believe.

To me, there 1911's. I know the difference between them, but im not going to waste the breath of saying A1 or Clone. If someone at our shop asks the difference, i explain it, but i dont get my G-string in a bunch if someone refers to an A1 as a 1911.
 
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Chris_B

New member
So the members here never refer to 1911A1's as 1911's?? or even better 1911 clones? I find that hard to believe.
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I imagine you find it hard to believe because nobody in this thread said that ;)

We've been discussing a teeny little part of what makes a 1911 a 1911, not what overall defines the 1911
 
R

redsrtturbo

New member
Since everyone is getting in on this one-

1911 has to be:

Over-rated
Over-priced
More show than go
Problems are not the gun's fault
"koch measuring utilities"
must be defended at all costs

Did I miss anything?
 
M

mitchell koster

New member
This is Wikipedia's definition of a 1911 pistol:

"The M1911 is a single-action, semi-automatic, magazine-fed, recoil-operated handgun chambered for the .45 ACP cartridge"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1911_pistol

MK
 
C

Chris_B

New member
Gee redsrtturbo, I guess we all you an apology. We forgot to ask if it was OK with you to post about the topic and discuss it rationally.

But I suppose you did miss one thing-

a 1911 is a fetish object for you
 
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S

Stiofan

New member
A 1911 is a semi-auto handgun based on John Browning's design and retaining the majority of its original characteristics.

That's my definition. Anyone is free to have a different one though.
 
C

Chris_B

New member
This is Wikipedia's definition of a 1911 pistol:

"The M1911 is a single-action, semi-automatic, magazine-fed, recoil-operated handgun chambered for the .45 ACP cartridge"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1911_pistol
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But that's not the definition given by wiki at all. That's merely the first sentence in the article :) That's not offered as the definition

That's like saying my 1970 Buick is a Chrysler if I Wiki has the words "American automobiles featuring V8 engines manufactured in the 1970s" in its description of Mopars

The name of the pistol was never "M1911". Look at the photo given for Pete's sake, it's an M1911A1 made by Remington Rand and has as its caption "United States Pistol, Caliber .45, M1911". But that article is to be taken as the facts?

I think that Wiki article is a good example of why Wiki is to be avoided- good information mixed in with common misconception masquerading as stone cold fact. But because it's all-knowing Wiki, it must be gospel...it's online in an encyclopedia!
 
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