What does bin Ladin want?

4thHorseman

New member
I believe the terrorist acts by that A**Hole must be dealt with, and the way we're doing it suits me just fine. But something struck me as odd and started me wondering about things. I heard a news article about the terrorist acts will not stop until his demands are met. I never knew what his demands were. Does anyone know what that jerk is demanding? I searched the net and unable to find any info on it.
 

pax

New member
Found this at http://www.guardian.co.uk/waronterror/story/0,1361,565069,00.html
Text: Bin Laden's statement

Translation supplied by the Associated Press
Sunday October 7, 2001

I bear witness that there is no God but Allah and that Mohammed is his messenger. There is America, hit by God in one of its softest spots. Its greatest buildings were destroyed, thank God for that.
There is America, full of fear from its north to its south, from its west to its east. Thank God for that. What America is tasting now, is something insignificant compared to what we have tasted for scores of years. Our nation (the Islamic world) has been tasting this humiliation and this degradation for more than 80 years. Its sons are killed, its blood is shed, its sanctuaries are attacked, and no one hears and no one heeds.

When God blessed one of the groups of Islam, vanguards of Islam, they destroyed America. I pray to God to elevate their status and bless them. Millions of innocent children are being killed as I speak. They are being killed in Iraq without committing any sins and we don't hear condemnation or a fatwa from the rulers.

In these days, Israeli tanks infest Palestine - in Jenin, Ramallah, Rafah, Beit Jalla, and other places in the land of Islam, and we don't hear anyone raising his voice or moving a limb. When the sword comes down (on America), after 80 years, hypocrisy rears its ugly head. They deplore and they lament for those killers, who have abused the blood, honour, and sanctuaries of Muslims. The least that can be said about those people, is that they are debauched. They have followed injustice. They supported the butcher over the victim, the oppressor over the innocent child. May God show them His wrath and give them what they deserve.

I say that the situation is clear and obvious. After this event, after the senior officials have spoken in America, starting with the head of infidels worldwide, Bush, and those with him. They have come out in force with their men and have turned even the countries that belong to Islam to this treachery, and they want to wag their tail at God, to fight Islam, to supress people in the name of terrorism.

When people at the ends of the earth, Japan, were killed by their hundreds of thousands, young and old, it was not considered a war crime, it is something that has justification. Millions of children in Iraq, is something that has justification. But when they lose dozens of people in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam (capitals of Kenya and Tanzania, where US embassies were bombed in 1998), Iraq was struck and Afghanistan was struck. Hypocrisy stood in force behind the head of infidels worldwide, behind the cowards of this age, America and those who are with it.

These events have divided the whole world into two sides. The side of believers and the side of infidels, may God keep you away from them. Every Muslim has to rush to make his religion victorious. The winds of faith have come. The winds of change have come to eradicate oppression from the island of Muhammad, peace be upon him.

To America, I say only a few words to it and its people. I swear by God, who has elevated the skies without pillars, neither America nor the people who live in it will dream of security before we live it in Palestine, and not before all the infidel armies leave the land of Muhammad, peace by upon him. God is great, may pride be with Islam. May peace and God's mercy be upon you.

All he wants is for the Jews evacuate Israel and non-Muslims leave the entire Arabian Peninsula to the Muslims. :rolleyes:

pax
 

scud

New member
I am absoluetly positive what he really wants is all of our liberal media personalities shipped over to him immediately.

IMO he is either A. a sociopath fanatic in which case he wants terror & the power it brings over others - therefore he will never be satisfied, he'll just move to the next "outrage" to declare jihad over

or B. he's a patsy kicking boy in which case he probably wants his next paycheck
 

Kernel

New member
In the near term he wants only one thing - absolute control of Saudi Arabia.

In the long term - an Islamic One World State.

As he sees it a direct attack on the United States is the best way to facilitate both of these goals.

-- Kernel
 

jimpeel

New member
He has stated unequivocally that the return of the former glory of Islam cannot be realized until the complete destruction of Western civilization.

He would burn the Louvre, the Vatican, St. Paul's, The Mormon Tabernacle, and any church/temple that was not Islamic. He would burn every Van Gogh, Van Meer, and Rembrandt, every work of Shakespeare, Homer, and Plato, and he would slaughter every non Muslim to the last man, woman, and child.

His bastardized version of Islam never creates anything. It leaves nothing but destruction in its wake.
 

Mike in VA

New member
I think Jimpeel hit it - the complete destruction of the 'corrupted' Western civilization. The guy is another evil, festering monolith, a paragon of hatred and intolerance and an offense to all that is Holy by virtually any moral code and value system on Earth. He will join the Hitlers, Musselinis, Pol Pots, Sadam Husseins and other great (sic) ****balls in modern history. I think that the World is a much bigger place than he understands, and we will prevail. He and his ilk will pay, Inshallah.

Tough times don't last, tough people do.
 

Jeff Thomas

New member
IMHO, it is wise to know your enemy, and to understand the context of the war.

In that light, the most succinct list of demands I have seen is:

  1. End the embargo on Iraq. [The UN, supposedly, estimates that the U.S. embargo has killed 500,000 Iraqi children.]
  2. Get U.S. GI's (and their Playboy magazines) out of Saudi Arabia.
  3. End U.S. support for Israel against the Palestinians.
    [/list=1]

    The same commentator that provided the list above also pointed out that Bin Laden actually declared war on us about 10 years ago ... but we effectively ignored him. While he bombed the Khobar Towers (killing 19 American servicemen), our embassies in Kenya and Tanzania (killing 224 people, including 12 Americans), and the U.S.S. Cole (killing 17 sailors), we pursued him without effect.

    Now the basta*d has killed thousands of our countrymen, and we are finally intent upon defeating him and his ilk. I pray we meet our goals quickly, and put these people in early graves.


    Having said all of that, and recognizing that most people are unwilling or unable to examine this situation further, I still feel compelled to offer this ... we would be wise to reexamine some of our foreign policy decisions. Such a reexamination does not in any way excuse what these animals have done. However, our disgusting relationship with Bill Clinton yielded some pretty poor foreign policy, and we would be wise to think long and hard about how we interact with the rest of the world.

    It is unpopular at the moment, but I have been swayed to accept our current situation as a religious war. While it is quite true that all Muslims are not our enemy, it is also true that in this conflict, all of our enemies are indeed Muslim. It appears to me that Bush is understating the numbers of Muslims who are aligned against us. Others are overstating, and claiming that a majority of Muslims are sympathetic to Bin Laden and his murderous savages. I believe the truth is probably somewhere in between.

    If that is the case, then it would be wise to ask ourselves why large numbers of Muslims feel such hatred towards America. Personally, I believe it is a combination of ignorance and scapegoating, and some foolish American foreign policy decisions ... with an emphasis towards the former.

    So, you asked for his demands, and the list above is the best description I've seen.

    Regards from AZ
 

Kaboom

New member
He want's his definition of his perfect world. What he and all those that follow his warped sence of right deserve is a 45/70 right between the eyes. Just another whacko using religion to justify his actions. Kill the bas***d like the rabid animal that he is and all those he has infected.
 

ctdonath

New member
Us, dead.

"Us" being anyone living/promoting anything vaguely related to Western culture.

"Dead" being not just metabolically challenged, but totally wiped out of visible reminders & recorded history.
 

MatthewM

New member
Osama-bin-lada-rama-dama may factually be a "religious and ethnic radica". But, it is more likely that he is simply a spoiled brat who craves recognition and power. Since it was impossible for him to get it in Saudi, he went to Afgan where there was a need and his millions could very easilly buy him an exhalted status.

Power & glory for a spoiled brat. Similar to many of history's evil rulers and even many rulers of more mellow countries.

Look at Billy Bob Clinton. All he wanted was to be popular. I can't say I'm in love with George Dubya, but at least his goals seem to be to be a president! Good or not so perfect, at least he seems to always be acting in what he percieves as our best interest rather than our own.
 

Monkeyleg

New member
Some excellent points, Jeff. But how do we deal with Iraq in any sort of peaceful manner, when it's very likely that they've been behind some of the attacks? Also, how do we carve up our only real ally in the region, Israel? What's more, how can we stop the Islamic fundamentalist 20 year-old guys here who "fired all their guns at once" on a Playboy centerfold from mailing it back home to their buddies?

The Syrians are afraid of the Saudi's. The Saudi's are afraid of Iraq, and so are the Kuwaiti's. The Iraqi's are afraid of Iran. The Iranians are afraid of the Iraqi's and of the Afghani's. The Afghani's are afraid of everyone, including the Pakistani's, the Iranians, the Indians and every last 12-member tribe within their own borders. The Indians are afraid of the Pakistani's (and launched attacks on the borders tonight). China's afraid of India. Russia is still leery of the Chinese, and still hates the Afghani's. Everybody hates Israel, but nobody accepts the Palestinians because they never really had a country. It was like a game of musical chairs and, when the music ended, the Palestinians were still standing. The Turks hate the Greeks (I just think they're jealous of the food). And nobody respects the French because they haven't won a war since our colonialists helped them 300 years ago.

Jeff, do you really think we can make some comprehensive foreign policy out of the above? If it's a religious war, we can never win because we're not predominantly Muslim. If it's a question of surrendering Israel, I want no part of it. In the end, though, I just think they're going to hate us no matter what.

Sorry for being flippant in my reply, but I don't see any way for us to get the people in that part of the world to like us. Hell, they can't even tolerate their brethren.
 

Jeff Thomas

New member
Dick, you make a lot of good points.

Some of your post reminds me of an old, funny Tom Lehrer tune "National Brotherhood Week" (see http://wiw.org/~drz/tom.lehrer/the_year.html ) :

Oh, the Protestants hate the Catholics,
And the Catholics hate the Protestants,
And the Hindus hate the Moslems,
And everybody hates the Jews.


Well, some things cannot be undone, and frankly, I didn't spend a lot of activist time on these issues. So, I'm part of the problem I suppose.

We made lots of mistakes. We elected Bill Clinton, and IMHO, he was a dismal failure at foreign policy. How many countries did we bomb while he was President? I lost count. He was personally fortunate to not be minding the ship when his policy decisions came home to roost. But, George Bush senior made his mistakes as well.

1. Not taking out Saddam Hussein was, in retrospect, a terrible mistake. Just as WWI was a precursor to WWII because of its bad end, the Persian Gulf War has helped bring to us the War on Some Terrorism (we'll see how serious we are about truly defeating all terrorists). Our embargo on Iraq seems to have done exactly what our enemies claimed ... we killed and damaged thousands of innocent people, and Saddam seems to have been little affected. I suspect we'll see many analyses about the sins of the Persian Gulf War coming back to haunt us.

2. I agree with you generally about our support of Israel. This is clearly one of the most vexing situations. I recognize that any of our leaders have a very tough row to hoe in this area. I do believe that the leftists' and the media's more obvious support for radical Palestinian causes in the last few years has helped to stoke these fires.

3. It is clear that most of these people in that part of the world can't begin to get along with each other. Here in the U.S. we tend to ignore it, but the Iran-Iraq war was just devastating. More reason for keeping out of the region as much as possible.

4. My own belief is that we would be smart to disengage from many of our foreign entanglements. We get involved deeper every year it seems, and we have troops all over the globe. I'm sure some will feel this is naive, and perhaps it is ... but I'm not sure that critics of a more home-based, mind-our-own-business approach have properly tallied the costs of foreign entanglements.

5. If we don't use all of the oil resources we have, and use technology to get away from dependence on any Middle East oil, then we are probably doomed to killing our young so that we can drive and live cheaply on foreign oil. I don't believe in socialism, nor state-controlled economies. But the state makes some practical development of oil resources impossible due to naive "green" policies, and our military costs for securing relatively cheap oil are not factored into the cost of gasoline and other oil products. I wonder if the free market would encourage and support more rapid development of oil alternatives if the true costs were allowed to pass through to the market?


Like most issues, it is easier to bitch than to find answers. And I'm certainly not an expert on this stuff ... I'm just another guy. But, I do know this ... we will be fools if the only lesson we learn from this mess is that terrorists are hard to locate and kill. I believe we're smarter than that, and I'll wager that similar discussions are going on in DC, albeit on an understated basis at the moment.

Regards from AZ
 

gburner

New member
equal opportunity

There used to be a commercial that stated 'you name it and Puria makes a chow for it. The same thing applies to all of this rabble in south asia and the middle east; 'you target it and we make a bomb for it'. I'm really tired of hearing ad infinatum who wants what, who hates who, who did what to whos grandparents, whos afraid of who, etc. Just like our parents did during that long family car trip everyone took, some authority figure has got to stop the car, get out and b#tch slap the living sh%t out of everyone in the back seat.
Is there gonna be whining and crying? Sure. Are there gonna be some feelings hurt? You bet! In the long run, the ride will be more quiet and maybe everyone involved will learn to tolerate everyone else. If not, repeat performances can be scheduled as necessary.
 

PKAY

New member
gburner - Now, THAT's funny!! I was fully expecting you to go on at the end, "...But seriously, folks..."

I can't help but get the feeling that there is a deep seated ENVY amongst our terrorist enemies and the Islamic world in general. After all, the greatness of middle eastern societies historically appears to have reached its pinnacle pre-Islam while the greatness and success of the West has a foundation in Judeo-Christian culture. Perhaps therein lies the genesis of the anti-modernity slant of radical Islam. The women as chattel beliefs sit real well with Gloria Steinem and company too (although, I read somewhere she actually got MARRIED!).
 

Monkeyleg

New member
Jeff, good points all. As long as we're dependent upon Middle Eastern oil, we can't be free to conduct foreign policy that is in the interests of our national security. Under Clinton, our dependency on imported oil rose 50%. We must open up ANWAR to drilling. We should also work with Mexico and Venezuala to help them increase production. We might look at the idea of giving those two countries a preferred provider status, where we pay them more than the going market rate for their oil. And, realistically, we should be doing more on researching alternative fuel sources and accelerating the development of electric cars. (Hope that doesn't sound too "green"). We should be building nuclear reactors at a feverish rate.

In the meantime, though, I hope our aircrews get all the trigger time they want, and that they come back safe.
 

Jeff Thomas

New member
The algebra of infinite justice

A very long, but very interesting email passed on to me by friends. I submit it without comment, for your consideration.

Regards from AZ

****************************************************

From: "LibertyWire" <Distribution@AmericanLibertyFoundation.org>
Organization: American Liberty Foundation
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 16:18:46 -0700
To: "Subscriber" <LibertyWire@mjx.AmericanLibertyFoundation.org>
Subject: The algebra of infinite justice

To respond to this message, please DO NOT hit "Reply"
because this address is not monitored. To send a reply,
please mailto:LibertyWire@AmericanLibertyFoundation.org


L i b e r t y W i r e

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Dear LibertyWire Subscriber,

A Chinese curse reads, "May you live in interesting times." E-mail feedback
that we've received regarding Harry Browne's articles on the terrorist
attacks of 9-11 convince me that we are indeed living in interesting times.

For example, it is interesting, but not unusual, that the messages Mr.
Browne receives often leap to conclusions; either about his alleged lack of
patriotism or his supposed lack of historical knowledge. But it is precisely
because of his patriotism for the American ideal and his knowledge of
history that he has spoken early and often in contravention of the
conventional wisdom.

But I have a confession to make. Until last Friday, I wondered if our
Director of Public Policy wasn't at least a little off the mark. Given my
past experience, I figured that Harry Browne's instinct was right. However,
I was having a hard time connecting the dots. Then on Friday, I read this
article by Arundhati Roy in the UK Guardian.

Over the weekend, I found myself recommending it to people -- something I
rarely do because no one ever follows that kind of advice anyway. But this
article is a tour-de-force.

Let me warn you, it is long at nearly 3700 words. If this file took a long
time to download -- I apologize. I won't make a habit of sending files this
size to you.

I hope you will agree with me that this article is well worth the time. This
article had to be long because it left few, if any, stones unturned. If you
only read a limited number of foreign policy articles relating to current
events, this one should be at the top of the list. Once you've read it (and
I recommend a re-read) you will know more about the geo-politics of, not to
mention the American foreign policy blunders in, the Middle East --
Afghanistan in particular. Perhaps, it may even do for you what it did for
me -- connect the dots.

Finally, Ms. Roy is a wonderful writer with a vast vocabulary. There are a
few words in this article that required me to go to a dictionary. As a
time-saving courtesy, I've taken the liberty of listing those, along with
one other, below with their dictionary definitions:

stygian -- Gloomy, dark; Infernal, hellish.
augury -- A sign or omen; Indication.
garrote -- A method of execution by strangulation or by
breaking the neck with an iron collar screwed tight.
doppelganger -- A ghostly double of a living person,
especially one that haunts its own fleshly counterpart.

And it should go without saying that there are a couple of very minor things
in this article that I don't agree with, but none of them subtract from the
power or overall accuracy of it.

-- Jim Babka, President
American Liberty Foundation


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The algebra of infinite justice

As the US prepares to wage a new kind of war, author
Arundhati Roy challenges the instinct for vengeance

The Guardian/September 29, 2001
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4266289,00.html

In the aftermath of the unconscionable September 11 suicide attacks on the
Pentagon and the World Trade Center, an American newscaster said: "Good and
evil rarely manifest themselves as clearly as they did last Tuesday. People
who we don't know massacred people who we do. And they did so with
contemptuous glee." Then he broke down and wept.

Here's the rub: America is at war against people it doesn't know, because
they don't appear much on TV. Before it has properly identified or even
begun to comprehend the nature of its enemy, the US government has, in a
rush of publicity and embarrassing rhetoric, cobbled together an
"international coalition against terror", mobilized its army, its air force,
its navy and its media, and committed them to battle.

The trouble is that once America goes off to war, it can't very well return
without having fought one. If it doesn't find its enemy, for the sake of the
enraged folks back home, it will have to manufacture one. Once war begins,
it will develop a momentum, a logic and a justification of its own, and
we'll lose sight of why it's being fought in the first place.

What we're witnessing here is the spectacle of the world's most powerful
country reaching reflexively, angrily, for an old instinct to fight a new
kind of war. Suddenly, when it comes to defending itself, America's
streamlined warships, cruise missiles and F-16 jets look like obsolete,
lumbering things. As deterrence, its arsenal of nuclear bombs is no longer
worth its weight in scrap. Box-cutters, penknives, and cold anger are the
weapons with which the wars of the new century will be waged. Anger is the
lock pick. It slips through customs unnoticed. Doesn't show up in baggage
checks.

Who is America fighting? On September 20, the FBI said that it had doubts
about the identities of some of the hijackers. On the same day President
George Bush said, "We know exactly who these people are and which
governments are supporting them." It sounds as though the president knows
something that the FBI and the American public don't.

In his September 20 address to the US Congress, President Bush called the
enemies of America "enemies of freedom". "Americans are asking, 'Why do they
hate us?' " he said. "They hate our freedoms -- our freedom of religion, our
freedom of speech, our freedom to vote and assemble and disagree with each
other." People are being asked to make two leaps of faith here. First, to
assume that The Enemy is who the US government says it is, even though it
has no substantial evidence to support that claim. And second, to assume
that The Enemy's motives are what the US government says they are, and
there's nothing to support that either.

For strategic, military and economic reasons, it is vital for the US
government to persuade its public that their commitment to freedom and
democracy and the American Way of Life is under attack. In the current
atmosphere of grief, outrage and anger, it's an easy notion to peddle.
However, if that were true, it's reasonable to wonder why the symbols of
America's economic and military dominance -- the World Trade Center and the
Pentagon -- were chosen as the targets of the attacks. Why not the Statue of
Liberty?

Could it be that the stygian anger that led to the attacks has its taproot
not in American freedom and democracy, but in the US government's record of
commitment and support to exactly the opposite things -- to military and
economic terrorism, insurgency, military dictatorship, religious bigotry and
unimaginable genocide (outside America)? It must be hard for ordinary
Americans, so recently bereaved, to look up at the world with their eyes
full of tears and encounter what might appear to them to be indifference. It
isn't indifference. It's just augury. An absence of surprise. The tired
wisdom of knowing that what goes around eventually comes around. American
people ought to know that it is not them but their government's policies
that are so hated. They can't possibly doubt that they themselves, their
extraordinary musicians, their writers, their actors, their spectacular
sportsmen and their cinema, are universally welcomed. All of us have been
moved by the courage and grace shown by firefighters, rescue workers and
ordinary office staff in the days since the attacks.

America's grief at what happened has been immense and immensely public. It
would be grotesque to expect it to calibrate or modulate its anguish.
However, it will be a pity if, instead of using this as an opportunity to
try to understand why September 11 happened, Americans use it as an
opportunity to usurp the whole world's sorrow to mourn and avenge only their
own. Because then it falls to the rest of us to ask the hard questions and
say the harsh things. And for our pains, for our bad timing, we will be
disliked, ignored and perhaps eventually silenced.

The world will probably never know what motivated those particular hijackers
who flew planes into those particular American buildings. They were not
glory boys. They left no suicide notes, no political messages; no
organization has claimed credit for the attacks. All we know is that their
belief in what they were doing outstripped the natural human instinct for
survival, or any desire to be remembered. It's almost as though they could
not scale down the enormity of their rage to anything smaller than their
deeds. And what they did has blown a hole in the world as we knew it. In the
absence of information, politicians, political commentators and writers
(like myself) will invest the act with their own politics, with their own
interpretations. This speculation, this analysis of the political climate in
which the attacks took place, can only be a good thing.
 
Last edited:

Jeff Thomas

New member
But war is looming large. Whatever remains to be said must be said quickly.
Before America places itself at the helm of the "international coalition
against terror", before it invites (and coerces) countries to actively
participate in its almost godlike mission -- called Operation Infinite
Justice until it was pointed out that this could be seen as an insult to
Muslims, who believe that only Allah can mete out infinite justice, and was
renamed Operation Enduring Freedom- it would help if some small
clarifications are made. For example, Infinite Justice/Enduring Freedom for
whom? Is this America's war against terror in America or against terror in
general?

What exactly is being avenged here? Is it the tragic loss of almost 7,000
lives, the gutting of five million square feet of office space in Manhattan,
the destruction of a section of the Pentagon, the loss of several hundreds
of thousands of jobs, the bankruptcy of some airline companies and the dip
in the New York Stock Exchange?

Or is it more than that? In 1996, Madeleine Albright, then the US secretary
of state, was asked on national television what she felt about the fact that
500,000 Iraqi children had died as a result of US economic sanctions. She
replied that it was "a very hard choice", but that, all things considered,
"we think the price is worth it". Albright never lost her job for saying
this. She continued to travel the world representing the views and
aspirations of the US government. More pertinently, the sanctions against
Iraq remain in place. Children continue to die.

So here we have it. The equivocating distinction between civilization and
savagery, between the "massacre of innocent people" or, if you like, "a
clash of civilizations" and "collateral damage". The sophistry and
fastidious algebra of infinite justice. How many dead Iraqis will it take to
make the world a better place? How many dead Afghans for every dead
American? How many dead women and children for every dead man? How many dead
mojahedin for each dead investment banker? As we watch mesmerized, Operation
Enduring Freedom unfolds on TV monitors across the world. A coalition of the
world's superpowers is closing in on Afghanistan, one of the poorest, most
ravaged, war-torn countries in the world, whose ruling Taliban government is
sheltering Osama bin Laden, the man being held responsible for the September
11 attacks.

The only thing in Afghanistan that could possibly count as collateral value
is its citizenry. (Among them, half a million maimed orphans. There are
accounts of hobbling stampedes that occur when artificial limbs are
air-dropped into remote, inaccessible villages.) Afghanistan's economy is in
a shambles. In fact, the problem for an invading army is that Afghanistan
has no conventional coordinates or signposts to plot on a military map -- no
big cities, no highways, no industrial complexes, no water treatment plants.
Farms have been turned into mass graves. The countryside is littered with
land mines -- 10 million is the most recent estimate. The American army
would first have to clear the mines and build roads in order to take its
soldiers in.

Fearing an attack from America, one million citizens have fled from their
homes and arrived at the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan. The UN
estimates that there are eight million Afghan citizens who need emergency
aid. As supplies run out -- food and aid agencies have been asked to
leave -- the BBC reports that one of the worst humanitarian disasters of
recent times has begun to unfold. Witness the infinite justice of the new
century. Civilians starving to death while they're waiting to be killed.

In America there has been rough talk of "bombing Afghanistan back to the
stone age". Someone please break the news that Afghanistan is already there.
And if it's any consolation, America played no small part in helping it on
its way. The American people may be a little fuzzy about where exactly
Afghanistan is (we hear reports that there's a run on maps of the country),
but the US government and Afghanistan are old friends.

In 1979, after the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, the CIA and Pakistan's
ISI (Inter Services Intelligence) launched the largest covert operation in
the history of the CIA. Their purpose was to harness the energy of Afghan
resistance to the Soviets and expand it into a holy war, an Islamic jihad,
which would turn Muslim countries within the Soviet Union against the
communist regime and eventually destabilize it. When it began, it was meant
to be the Soviet Union's Vietnam. It turned out to be much more than that.
Over the years, through the ISI, the CIA funded and recruited almost 100,000
radical mojahedin from 40 Islamic countries as soldiers for America's proxy
war. The rank and file of the mojahedin were unaware that their jihad was
actually being fought on behalf of Uncle Sam. (The irony is that America was
equally unaware that it was financing a future war against itself.)

In 1989, after being bloodied by 10 years of relentless conflict, the
Russians withdrew, leaving behind a civilization reduced to rubble.

Civil war in Afghanistan raged on. The jihad spread to Chechnya, Kosovo and
eventually to Kashmir. The CIA continued to pour in money and military
equipment, but the overheads had become immense, and more money was needed.
The mojahedin ordered farmers to plant opium as a "revolutionary tax". The
ISI set up hundreds of heroin laboratories across Afghanistan. Within two
years of the CIA's arrival, the Pakistan-Afghanistan borderland had become
the biggest producer of heroin in the world, and the single biggest source
of the heroin on American streets. The annual profits, said to be between
$100bn and $200bn, were ploughed back into training and arming militants.

In 1995, the Taliban -- then a marginal sect of dangerous, hard-line
fundamentalists -- fought its way to power in Afghanistan. It was funded by
the ISI, that old cohort of the CIA, and supported by many political parties
in Pakistan. The Taliban unleashed a regime of terror. Its first victims
were its own people, particularly women. It closed down girls' schools,
dismissed women from government jobs, and enforced sharia laws under which
women deemed to be "immoral" are stoned to death, and widows guilty of being
adulterous are buried alive. Given the Taliban government's human rights
track record, it seems unlikely that it will in any way be intimidated or
swerved from its purpose by the prospect of war, or the threat to the lives
of its civilians.

After all that has happened, can there be anything more ironic than Russia
and America joining hands to re-destroy Afghanistan? The question is, can
you destroy destruction? Dropping more bombs on Afghanistan will only
shuffle the rubble, scramble some old graves and disturb the dead.

The desolate landscape of Afghanistan was the burial ground of Soviet
communism and the springboard of a unipolar world dominated by America. It
made the space for neocapitalism and corporate globalization, again
dominated by America. And now Afghanistan is poised to become the graveyard
for the unlikely soldiers who fought and won this war for America.

And what of America's trusted ally? Pakistan too has suffered enormously.
The US government has not been shy of supporting military dictators who have
blocked the idea of democracy from taking root in the country. Before the
CIA arrived, there was a small rural market for opium in Pakistan. Between
1979 and 1985, the number of heroin addicts grew from zero to one-and-a-half
million. Even before September 11, there were three million Afghan refugees
living in tented camps along the border. Pakistan's economy is crumbling.
Sectarian violence, globalization's structural adjustment programs and drug
lords are tearing the country to pieces. Set up to fight the Soviets, the
terrorist training centers and madrasahs, sown like dragon's teeth across
the country, produced fundamentalists with tremendous popular appeal within
Pakistan itself.

The Taliban, which the Pakistan government has supported, funded and propped
up for years, has material and strategic alliances with Pakistan's own
political parties. Now the US government is asking (asking?) Pakistan to
garotte the pet it has hand-reared in its backyard for so many years.
President Musharraf, having pledged his support to the US, could well find
he has something resembling civil war on his hands.

India, thanks in part to its geography, and in part to the vision of its
former leaders, has so far been fortunate enough to be left out of this
Great Game. Had it been drawn in, it's more than likely that our democracy,
such as it is, would not have survived. Today, as some of us watch in
horror, the Indian government is furiously gyrating its hips, begging the US
to set up its base in India rather than Pakistan. Having had this ringside
view of Pakistan's sordid fate, it isn't just odd, it's unthinkable, that
India should want to do this. Any third world country with a fragile economy
and a complex social base should know by now that to invite a superpower
such as America in (whether it says it's staying or just passing through)
would be like inviting a brick to drop through your windscreen.
 
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Jeff Thomas

New member
Operation Enduring Freedom is ostensibly being fought to uphold the American
Way of Life. It'll probably end up undermining it completely. It will spawn
more anger and more terror across the world. For ordinary people in America,
it will mean lives lived in a climate of sickening uncertainty: will my
child be safe in school? Will there be nerve gas in the subway? A bomb in
the cinema hall? Will my love come home tonight? There have been warnings
about the possibility of biological warfare -- smallpox, bubonic plague,
anthrax -- the deadly payload of innocuous crop-duster aircraft. Being
picked off a few at a time may end up being worse than being annihilated all
at once by a nuclear bomb.

The US government, and no doubt governments all over the world, will use the
climate of war as an excuse to curtail civil liberties, deny free speech,
lay off workers, harass ethnic and religious minorities, cut back on public
spending and divert huge amounts of money to the defense industry. To what
purpose? President Bush can no more "rid the world of evil-doers" than he
can stock it with saints. It's absurd for the US government to even toy with
the notion that it can stamp out terrorism with more violence and
oppression. Terrorism is the symptom, not the disease. Terrorism has no
country. It's transnational, as global an enterprise as Coke or Pepsi or
Nike. At the first sign of trouble, terrorists can pull up stakes and move
their "factories" from country to country in search of a better deal. Just
like the multi-nationals.

Terrorism as a phenomenon may never go away. But if it is to be contained,
the first step is for America to at least acknowledge that it shares the
planet with other nations, with other human beings who, even if they are not
on TV, have loves and griefs and stories and songs and sorrows and, for
heaven's sake, rights. Instead, when Donald Rumsfeld, the US defense
secretary, was asked what he would call a victory in America's new war, he
said that if he could convince the world that Americans must be allowed to
continue with their way of life, he would consider it a victory.

The September 11 attacks were a monstrous calling card from a world gone
horribly wrong. The message may have been written by Bin Laden (who knows?)
and delivered by his couriers, but it could well have been signed by the
ghosts of the victims of America's old wars. The millions killed in Korea,
Vietnam and Cambodia, the 17,500 killed when Israel -- backed by the US --
invaded Lebanon in 1982, the 200,000 Iraqis killed in Operation Desert
Storm, the thousands of Palestinians who have died fighting Israel's
occupation of the West Bank. And the millions who died, in Yugoslavia,
Somalia, Haiti, Chile, Nicaragua, El Salvador, the Dominican Republic,
Panama, at the hands of all the terrorists, dictators and genocidists whom
the American government supported, trained, bankrolled and supplied with
arms. And this is far from being a comprehensive list.

For a country involved in so much warfare and conflict, the American people
have been extremely fortunate. The strikes on September 11 were only the
second on American soil in over a century. The first was Pearl Harbor. The
reprisal for this took a long route, but ended with Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
This time the world waits with bated breath for the horrors to come.

Someone recently said that if Osama bin Laden didn't exist, America would
have had to invent him. But, in a way, America did invent him. He was among
the jihadis who moved to Afghanistan in 1979 when the CIA commenced its
operations there. Bin Laden has the distinction of being created by the CIA
and wanted by the FBI. In the course of a fortnight he has been promoted
from suspect to prime suspect and then, despite the lack of any real
evidence, straight up the charts to being "wanted dead or alive".

>From all accounts, it will be impossible to produce evidence (of the sort
that would stand scrutiny in a court of law) to link Bin Laden to the
September 11 attacks. So far, it appears that the most incriminating piece
of evidence against him is the fact that he has not condemned them.

>From what is known about the location of Bin Laden and the living conditions
in which he operates, it's entirely possible that he did not personally plan
and carry out the attacks -- that he is the inspirational figure, "the CEO
of the holding company".

The Taliban's response to US demands for the extradition of Bin Laden has
been uncharacteristically reasonable: produce the evidence, then we'll hand
him over. President Bush's response is that the demand is "non-negotiable".

(While talks are on for the extradition of CEOs -- can India put in a side
request for the extradition of Warren Anderson of the US? He was the
chairman of Union Carbide, responsible for the Bhopal gas leak that killed
16,000 people in 1984. We have collated the necessary evidence. It's all in
the files. Could we have him, please?)

But who is Osama bin Laden really? Let me rephrase that. What is Osama bin
Laden? He's America's family secret. He is the American president's dark
doppelganger. The savage twin of all that purports to be beautiful and
civilized. He has been sculpted from the spare rib of a world laid to waste
by America's foreign policy: its gunboat diplomacy, its nuclear arsenal, its
vulgarly stated policy of "full-spectrum dominance", its chilling disregard
for non-American lives, its barbarous military interventions, its support
for despotic and dictatorial regimes, its merciless economic agenda that has
munched through the economies of poor countries like a cloud of locusts. Its
marauding multinationals who are taking over the air we breathe, the ground
we stand on, the water we drink, the thoughts we think.

Now that the family secret has been spilled, the twins are blurring into one


another and gradually becoming interchangeable. Their guns, bombs, money and
drugs have been going around in the loop for a while. (The Stinger missiles
that will greet US helicopters were supplied by the CIA. The heroin used by
America's drug addicts comes from Afghanistan. The Bush administration
recently gave Afghanistan a $43m subsidy for a "war on drugs". . . .)

Now Bush and Bin Laden have even begun to borrow each other's rhetoric. Each
refers to the other as "the head of the snake". Both invoke God and use the
loose millenarian currency of good and evil as their terms of reference.
Both are engaged in unequivocal political crimes. Both are dangerously
armed -- one with the nuclear arsenal of the obscenely powerful, the other
with the incandescent, destructive power of the utterly hopeless. The
fireball and the ice pick. The bludgeon and the axe. The important thing to
keep in mind is that neither is an acceptable alternative to the other.

President Bush's ultimatum to the people of the world -- "If you're not with
us, you're against us" -- is a piece of presumptuous arrogance. It's not a
choice that people want to, need to, or should have to make.

© Arundhati Roy 2001

Arundhati Roy is author of the novel The God of Small Things (Random House).

This article does not necessarily represent the
views of the board of directors, staff or supporters
of the American Liberty Foundation.

Please Note: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C.,
Section 107, this material is distributed --
without profit or payment -- to those who have
expressed a prior interest in receiving such
information for non-profit educational purposes
only. For more information, please go to
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Okay, I'll make one comment.

I believe we can pursue revenge and justice for the murders of innocent men, women and children on September 11, 2001. I also believe we can honestly evaluate how we have come to this place in history. As a matter of fact, I would offer that it is absolutely critical that we consider our road to this place ... we should compare our fine ideals of justice, freedom and personal responsiblity with the actions of the governments we support with our daily labor.

I don't know the answers. But I do know that the title of this thread asks a wise question.

Regards from AZ
 
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Fred Hansen

New member
I tend to be judgemental. I give little notice to a persons words or intentions when their deeds are as obvious as OBL's.

The question is what does OBL want?

OBL + D****rhead buddies + Terror attacks = Eternal dirt nap, or in redneck venacular F**k him and the camel he rode in on!

Any questions?

That's not a line in the sand, it's a range marker, and we aim to please.
 
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