What are the relative merits of DAO over SAO.

[Saab1911]

I understand the arguments for Double Action Only.

DAO is simpler than DA/SA. You don't have to practice two different trigger
pulls. The most important shot is the very first shot. So, missing the first
shot because it is different from all subsequent shots (and you neglected
to practice double action trigger pull) is not a good idea.

There are no manual safeties and decockers to worry about. The long
trigger pull is your safety. Again, it's simpler.

Well, then why not Single Action Only? There's only one trigger pull to
learn, and you can just carry cocked and locked. Anyone capable of
negligent discharge with cocked and locked is capable of negligent discharge
with any other firearm (as proven with M9 switchover).

The trigger with SAO is the lightest you can possibly get it. No DAO trigger
will ever come close.

So, what are the advantages of DAO over SAO?

In the interest of full disclosure, I don't own any DAO pistols. I own a SAO
pistol, a DA/SA pistol and a double action revoler. My question is posed
in a one-sided fashion to better effect a spirited debate, and no offense
is intended toward Glock/XD/M&P enthusiasts.

Cheers,

Jae

 

[roman3]

SAO is old fashioned.
As you say cocked and locked, some simply don't prefer to carry a gun in that condition. Not a 1911 fan and while I like the BHP, the Glock has the same trigger pull everytime too.

DAO - a true DAO is a heavy trigger pull and I have never found one that I like, all that much. Not a revolver guy so no need to transition. Was that not the purpose, to allow revolver leo's to transition to a similar trigger pull on auto's? Same pull everytime with no need to decock?

I learned on a DA/SA in the military (read Beretta) and carried striker-fired (read Glock) as an LEO.

different strokes for different folks I guess.

 

[HKFan9]

I would say... and I own a DA/SA and a DAO, and a DA revolver... that one concern with carrying SAO cocked and locked would be the safety would come off during a draw... which leaves the operator with a fairly light trigger pull. This makes me worry about if in an event I were to draw, point the weapon, and not have to fire. Proper technique here is obviously don't put your finger on the trigger until your ready to fire, keep it on the frame. But I could see other people or even well trained people in a very high stress situation forget this rule and maybe, just maybe a accidental discharge can occur, hitting a person who maybe did not need to be shot, which means your going to court ect.

Again not really a function issue of the gun, definitely on the operator side. This I think LEO's need to worry about a lot more than your average CCW citizen as well. LEO's have to keep people at gun point a lot of times with out shooting, so a DAO longer pull is a little bit more safe, in case for some reason the operator isn't following the rules.

 

[PSP]

Single action usually requires two actions to take place in order to fire, release a safety and pull the trigger. DAO is a simpler, just pull the trigger action. Is one faster, is one safer, is one more accurate? That all depends on the gun and the shooter. I would much prefer DAO to SA in a CCW personally. I very much believe in the KISS system of defensive firearms handling. If you want a range/ target gun, then SA may be the best available.

 

[45_Shooter]

Proper technique here is obviously don't put your finger on the trigger until your ready to fire, keep it on the frame. But I could see other people or even well trained people in a very high stress situation forget this rule and maybe, just maybe a accidental discharge can occur, hitting a person who maybe did not need to be shot, which means your going to court ect.

Not sure if it's technically correct or not, but I was taught to leave the safety on until a threat was recognized. Say you're clearing a house, the safety should be on, finger off the trigger, but with your thumb riding the safety for quick deactivation.

 

[ImDisaster]

The lines have blurred lately. There are already two (that I know of) SAO pistols that purport to be DAO, the S&W M&P and the Steyr M-A1. Both barely move the striker at all when the trigger is pulled. The reasoning behind them being safer, than a typical SA pistol, is they have more takeup and higher trigger pulls.

 

[Saab1911]

The lines have blurred lately. There are already two (that I know of) SAO pistols that purport to be DAO, the S&W M&P and the Steyr M-A1. Both barely move the striker at all when the trigger is pulled. The reasoning behind them being safer, than a typical SA pistol, is they have more takeup and higher trigger pulls.

Then, doesn't the whole "Ill trained officer may deactivate the safety and
forget to keep his trigger finger straight" argument for DAO go out the
window? With DAO striker fired pistols with light triggers, the ill trained
officer has to do one thing wrong to shoot somebody accidentally compared
to two things wrong with SAO pistol (disengage safety and forget to
keep trigger finger straight).

cheers,

jae

 

[IGO1320]

trigger's

I prefer the HK LEM system.....I had two occasions where I managed to "knock" off the manual safefy on a SA. If I had managed to get something against the trigger with the safety off things could have gotten ugly fast. With the LEM I holster the gun with my thumb over the hammer. To make it go bang the trigger has to be fully pulled, even though the trigger is very light (4.5lbs) this would be very difficult in a good holster. I understand that a lot of you do not like the LEM and I am not going to argue with you, I will conceed that it is not for everyone. What works for you will depend on your activities and confort level with a platform. Have a good day.

 

[HKFan9]

45 shooter, you may be right, I was told to clear a house... that I shouldn't since I'm not a LEO, just a civilian. If some one enters my house I plan to stay behind a locked door, and dial 911 first, I have no kids to worry about yet so that works for me. I was thinking more along the lines of a threat located in a street or alley. I was trained to take the safety off upon draw, at the time when the pistol is drawn up to the chest, muzzle pointed at target, and while extending your arms into firing stance your shooting grip disengage the safety. I don't use a 1911, I use a HK USP in the winter, and I don't carry it cocked and locked. Which makes me assured my method of disengaging the safety in mid draw is acceptable because my first shot will be the DA pull. I practice practice practice both DA and SA pull and I don't see any difference in results. Group size might suffer acutely, but still all DA shots proved to be COM, and roughly still pretty good groupings. I practice strong hand right, and weak handed left. I used to shoot rifle competition when I was younger and out of fun I trained myself to be pretty confident with both hands.

I'm no professional by any means so I do admit maybe my method is wrong, but that's what was ingrained into me. I was always told a defensive sidearm should be DA. I find the stock DA/SA of my USP ideal FOR ME. I do carry a Kahr PM9 for the warmer months and I do like the trigger pull that as well, its long and smooth, which is nice for what that gun is intended for... defense. Glocks don't fit my hands so I can't comment on their triggers because not enough experience with them. I enjoy my friends M&P but I get a little annoyed at the heavy "stacking" of its trigger right before the break, but then again I'm always shooting it between my USP and it's mostly SA pulls.
I trust my Kahr completely, but personally just feel a little better about having the manual safety on the USP. It's all personal preference really, my friend loves his M&P and shoots great with it, but sold his 1911 because he couldn't shoot it for anything, and I tested it and shot great. He prefers and works best with DA or I don't really know what to call the M&P trigger. But I always tell people to test and find one they like.

 

[45_Shooter]

45 shooter, you may be right, I was told to clear a house... that I shouldn't since I'm not a LEO, just a civilian. If some one enters my house I plan to stay behind a locked door, and dial 911 first, I have no kids to worry about yet so that works for me. I was thinking more along the lines of a threat located in a street or alley. I was trained to take the safety off upon draw, at the time when the pistol is drawn up to the chest, muzzle pointed at target, and while extending your arms into firing stance your shooting grip disengage the safety

I'm not LEO or military either, so I just assume let them handle it if it's possible. It's just that I don't live alone, so I train for the possibility of having to do it.

As far as popping the safety on a draw, it's completely instinctual for me to do this as well, and I don't really want to change it. I would think in a CCW situation, if your gun is out, you've already identified a threat, and therefore safety off anyhow until threat is neutralized, then safety on if you must hold them at gunpoint. The way I was taught: Threat immediate = safety off Threat not immediate = safety on

 

[B.N.Real]

All non target semi auto's seem to be going to a DAO trigger as their main trigger system.

The California external safety lever rule not withstanding,they are almost all doing away with selective manual safety's as well.

That's because a selectable safety system and having to either rack the slide,pull back the hammer or flick off a safety in the heat of a gunfight moment can go very wrong for the gun user and get them killed.

DAO trigger systems are improving now by THE MONTH.

It truly seems that gun manufacturers are competing to see who comes out with the first 'perfect' DAO trigger system.

SAO trigger systems may always be found on target and competition pistols becuase they delete the ramp up feature in the trigger pull and only have to deal with the latching of the spring loaded hammer mechanism.

This means they can be insanely light and crisp.

But you don't really want that when you're going from room to room in your house because you heard a noise and your kid comes around the corner instead of a burgular.

 

[Saab1911]

DAO trigger systems are improving now by THE MONTH.

Are the current DAO trigger systems similar in concept to Daewoo's "Fast
Action"? Is the main-spring compressed? Is that why the trigger pull is
light? I have a hard time imagining that compressing the main spring will
ever be light.

Cheers,

Jae

 

[varoadking]

It truly seems that gun manufacturers are competing to see who comes out with the first 'perfect' DAO trigger system.

The Kahr "Elite" trigger system has been around for quite some time now. Nothing else has even come close...nor do I expect anything ever will.

 

[Rmart30]

Unless its just a range gun for me I do not want anything with a safety I have to flip off... I love my DAO S&W 5946... had it 10 plus years w/no regrets...
I also bought a XD45c and so far like its trigger system also even though its different from the S&W's

 

[44 AMP]

Different applications favor different approaches

Quite a few years ago someone (Mas Ayoob, I think) wrote about how the SA trigger was preferable in a soldiers gun (a combat weapon), while a DA trigger was to be preferred in a police gun.

The reasoning was that in combat, a soldier who sees the enemy shoots at them, so an SA trigger (and safety) is no drawback. While a police officer often has to hold suspects at gunpoint, not intending to shoot, unless forced to, so the heavier pull of a DA trigger was a decided safety factor to prevent accidental (unintentional) discharges, which could wind up costing the officer (and their department) a lot.

Remember that the majority of pistol sales (in bulk) are made to the police and the military, so designers are constantly at work to create the best product for these markets. The US military doesn't change handguns often, but police departments do.

DAO autos are perhaps the best solution for police uniform carry, providing a consistant (even if poor) trigger pull, and doing it with reasonable safety against the possibility of negligent discharge, without using safety levers, buttons, or tabs.

It is only my opinion, but I do not feel that striker fired autos without a safety lock (lever/button, etc) do not go far enough to prevent unintentional discharge. That little tab on th trigger may be fine as a drop safe mechanism, but as a recent case involving a police officer and his 3 year old child, unintentional discharge is not sufficiently prevented. (now, quite true the officer created the situation, and is responsible but I doubt the 3 year old intended to shoot his dad in the back).

I am a civilian who shoots and carries a gun for personal protection and sport. MY needs are not the same as a police officers, nor a combat infantryman. And as such, I feel much of the argument between DA/SA, SAO/DAO/ DAK/ BFD and WTH? don't have a lot to do with me, except as they are found in certain handgun models I may consider purchasing.

I feel the only advantage of a DAO over any other trigger system is for people who expect to have to hold people at gunpoint. And those people who do this as part of their jobs buy large numbers of pistols, so it makes economic sense for a manufacturer to "perfect" the DAO system in their guns, in order to maximize the potential marketability of their product to Law Enforcemant agencies.

As a civilian, I wouldn't buy one, there is no advantage to me, and dozens of other models of guns (and trigger systems) that are more advantageous to me, in my circumstances.

If you want to carry what the cops carry, do so. Just don't fool yourself into believing that what the cops carry is automatically the best thing for you. It may be, but then again, it may not. If an objective analysis of your personal situation and the greatest risks you are likely to encounter leads you to believe you ought to carry a DAO (or any other system), then that is what you ought to do. It's your life, and your choice.

 

[AZAK]

I will chime in with a resounding, choose what works best for you! Not the most original; hey, but it works!

I have, and have had, a variety of different trigger "systems". I don't CC any target handguns, light & crisp and SD or HD in my mind don't mix well. And if I am trying to truly shoot "accurately" at a target, I don't use my DAO pistols.

It is a tool box. Sure you can use a crescent wrench to take a diamond out of a ring setting, but...

I enjoy them all and if I don't enjoy one, time to sell or trade it off; which I have done to many over the years.

Really that is why many of use have multiple guns. But, the fun is in the journey of discovering something different! And then learning whether or not this new gun is interesting to you. And then having the choice of what to carry or shoot today!

 

[Saab1911]

The lines have blurred lately. There are already two (that I know of) SAO pistols that purport to be DAO, the S&W M&P and the Steyr M-A1. Both barely move the striker at all when the trigger is pulled. The reasoning behind them being safer, than a typical SA pistol, is they have more takeup and higher trigger pulls.

I'm agreeing more with people who like their striker fired pistols than
disagreeing. Self defense situation is like a test you have to study for.
So, if you make the test as easy on yourself as possible, there is less
chance for you to fail (i.e. die). You would like to carry a revolver if it
were less bulky and carried more rounds. So, failing that striker fired
pistol is a good self defense option. I get all that.

But I like to play devil's advocate.

Some people are nervous carrying their pistol cocked and locked. But with
the striker fired pistols, they're not double action only. They are single
action only. I hadn't realized that until this thread. You rack the slide
to chamber a round, at which time the striker is cocked. The pistols do not
have decockers. So, the striker remains cocked all the time. So, the striker
fired pistols are carried cocked and unlocked.

I don't understand people who choose to carry handguns and are nervous
about cocked and locked anyway. Yeah, it's dangerous. It's a firearm.
If you point it at your foot and press the trigger, it will be very dangerous
to your foot.

The most important safety on any handgun has always been and always will
be your straight trigger finger.

Cheers,

jae

 

[King Ghidora]

I certainly understand the concern about carrying cocked and locked. Things happen and safeties get caught on things and that leaves you with a condition zero gun in your holster, or worse, your pocket. No one wants to pull a Barney Fife because it doesn't work the same way as it does on Andy Griffith. You get hurt if your gun goes off in your pocket.

My new Taurus is essentially a SA gun for all but rare occasions. It does have a safety but IMO that isn't enough for a SA gun. I carry mine condition three because of this. My Sig is a perfect design IMO. Yes it's DA/SA but a simple cocking of the hammer makes it SAO. I have to rack the slide to get that with my Taurus.

I realize the disadvantage of having to rack the slide when I draw my weapon. But the truth is I would never pull my gun if someone has one pointed at me even if I had a DAO. It's just asking for it. I'm going to wait for my opportunity to pull my gun and load a round in the tube unless I can find a holster that makes me feel really comfortable. I wish my first round was DA but it isn't. That's just how it is with a striker fired gun.

Maybe I will be able to find the right holster to make me feel safer carrying cocked and locked. I see no problems drawing and releasing the safety quickly. I just don't want it releasing in my holster and letting me find out about it the hard way.

A SA gun is much easier to fire repeatedly IMO. I much prefer them except for the problem I've described here. I know people do carry cocked and locked and I believe my Taurus is as good at it as any gun but I just don't like the idea and I feel carrying condtion three is a safer way of carrying and so much so that it overrides the problem of having to rack the slide when I pull my gun. I don't expect to be put in that situation often and when I do I expect to get that chance to make my decision the right one. Every time I've had a gun pointed at me I would have had plenty of time to rack the slide and fire before I was even noticed.

 

[KyJim]

Here's one advantage --Some like shoot SAO guns for recreational purposes, especially 1911s. If you get used to the manual of arms for such a pistol on the range, then it makes some sense to retain the benefit of your experience and training over to what gun you carry. Now, maybe that's putting the cart before the horse a little bit but I'm talking about civilian use here. We shoot primarily because we enjoy it, not because it is part of our job.

Personally, I will only carry a gun (1) which is SAO with a safety where down is fire and up is safe or a gun or (2) which has no safety or can be carried safely with safety disengaged.

 

[Saab1911]

Here's one advantage --Some like shoot SAO guns for recreational purposes, especially 1911s. If you get used to the manual of arms for such a pistol on the range, then it makes some sense to retain the benefit of your experience and training over to what gun you carry. Now, maybe that's putting the cart before the horse a little bit but I'm talking about civilian use here. We shoot primarily because we enjoy it, not because it is part of our job.

Practice makes perfect, and if practice is fun then so much the better.

I don't think there is anything wrong with carrying a pistol you're thoroughly
familiar with from practicing with it through recreational shooting. Firearms
are dangerous, and the more practice you get the safer you'll be and more
proficient you'll be. Any pistol other than a Saturday night special or a
Nambu will be safe if handled properly.

Cheers,

Jae