What are the REAL differences between AR manufacturers?

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Willie D

New member
What makes one AR manufacturer superior to another?

Metal quality? Tooling? More aggresive quality testing? Parts? Machine maintainence?

I'm under the impression that building an AR consists largely of loading your specs into CNC machines, pressing "GO", then throwing those parts together.

Opportunities for human error seem limited (gas block alignment?, headspacing?, gas keys?)

I'm just curious what individual factors make a Colt better than Brand X, instead of just saying "quality" or "price" and leaving it at that.
 
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KChen986

New member
Small but somewhat critical differences.

Someone correct me if i'm wrong, but doesn't Colt magnetic particle test all their bolts to ensure part integrity?

This may make a difference if you're putting 900 rounds down range in one day--since bolts are subject to high temperatures and have that weak link where the cam pin goes, bolt integrity is crucial.
 
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B. Lahey

New member
Colt, Rock River, Bushmaster, S&W ect...

Not much, they are all mil-spec rifles
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Not by a long shot. Colt, yes. Those others are not even in the milspec ballpark.

Colt proves and MPTs every rifle. Others just grab a "representative sample" off the production line, test it, and if it is acceptable the rest "pass" too.

Colt goes out of their way to use quality parts, my RRA has had a broken part about every other range trip lately, and it's getting really tiresome. And if my RRA manages to get through a range session without a broken part there will be at least one catastrophic malfunction that requires taking the rifle apart to clear. The rifle has been back to the factory twice, but still has issues aplenty.

My next AR will be a Colt. Just waiting for it to show up at Wildalaska's shop o' wonders...
 
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flight954

New member
So you can't exchange parts from a Bushmaster to a Colt or visa-versa?
I own a Bushy, S&W, RR 9mm SBR, and a RR pistol lower w/ a POF 11.5" upper and have had zero problems w/ any of them after many range trips. You could get a Colt and have the same problems you've had w/ your RR. I'm not downing Colt, I've never owned or shot one, but they can't be that much better than any of the other mid-grade AR's. I do agree that Colt is probably the top of the mid-grade list w/ all of the positive feed back. If I saw a Colt for $1000.00 and a Bushy for $900.00, I would save the $100 and buy the Bushy.
 
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spodwo

New member
Colt, Rock River, Bushmaster, S&W ect...

Not much, they are all mil-spec rifles
Click to expand...

Non of those commercially are mil spec. Some are closer than others. But non are made to full military specifications. Certainly NOT Bushmaster or Rock River.

Several articles have reviewed what "mil spec" is...

Here is one:

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6642

Go to the comparison chart listed and you will see that Colt pretty much comes to the closest.

You want to know about AR-15s and differences? Start here:

http://forums.officer.com/showthread.php?t=81462
 
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thinkingman

New member
Colt uses unobtanium harvested on the planet Krypton by Jedi knights and handforged by Trappist monks and quenched in the blood of virgins.

My RockRiver has the annoying habit of throwing a flyer and producing .4in groups.
NEVER a malfunction and that includes a couple hundred rounds of Wolf.
 
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flight954

New member
Colt uses unobtanium harvested on the planet Krypton by Jedi knights and handforged by Trappist monks and quenched in the blood of virgins.

My RockRiver has the annoying habit of throwing a flyer and producing .4in groups.
NEVER a malfunction and that includes a couple hundred rounds of Wolf.
Click to expand...

Couldn't have said it better myself. Especially the quenched in virgins blood. That produces the best rifle on the planet:D
 
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woodland

New member
I have 2 Colts and one RRA. I have never had any problems with either. My RRA is my duty rifle, and I will put 1000 rounds through it during a training class. I have run it in hot, cold, rain, snow, and it has never skipped a beat. When we run through a high round course, most other guys will clean their rifles half way through each day. I just clean it after the whole course. I decided to do this, because I just want to see how it handles it. If it fails in a class, I am not going to die, so that is where I want to find out what it can handle. So far it has been 100%.
 
K

KChen986

New member
I didn't want to turn this in to a "The Chart says This but my [XYZ Brand] Has been flawless!" Thread.

But I have a similar experience with my RRA. Took it through a carbine course, no hiccups of any kind. Every shot fired, extracted and the bolt locked back on empty no problem.

I have 100% Faith in my RRA. But maybe with a higher round count and more intense firing the weapon will start showing its weaknesses.

[Side Note]: I saw a guy have problems w/ a new Sig 556 in the same course--think it was a user induced malf though.
 
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globemaster3

New member
To save time and effort, I just cut and pasted my response to a similar discussion. Bottom line, with exception of some early Colts that used a different diameter pin arrangement, your parts are interchangeable.

Gentlemen, before you go praising the term "Milspec", remember, this is the same military who buys the $20,000 toilet seats and all!

Being on the "inside", let me tell you I am not necessarily impressed with my "Milspec" admin system, my "Milspec" finance system, and most certainly, my "Milspec" acquisition system who cannot figure out how to replace an aging blackhawk fleet or a tanker fleet that is 50+ years old.

My "Milspec" fitness system thinks even people 6'5" should have a 32" waist to max points, my "Milspec" uniforms require about 30 minutes of cutting off stray strings to make them look good when purchased new.

Now, I would suppose that a Blaser is not "Milspec", neither is a Perazzi, a Kreigoff, a Greener, a Browning A-Bolt, a Winchester 94, a Ruger 10-22, etc. Are these bad firearms because they are not "Milspec"?

Just think about that before bashing other firearms based on the published "Milspec Sheet" because of their lack of 100% "Milspec" parts. You might point to a couple failures in other brands, but every brand will have its lemons.

All that being said, IMHO, Colt does produce a fine rifle. I don't own one, but have shot them and suppose been issued them a couple times.
Click to expand...

Oh, and I forgot about the "Milspec" F-15 that broke in 2 during a mock dogfight.
 
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MrNiceGuy

Moderator
Colt uses unobtanium harvested on the planet Krypton by Jedi knights and handforged by Trappist monks and quenched in the blood of virgins.
Click to expand...

and yet, even colt rifles have problems.


I have put 1000 flawless rounds through my dpms in a day, whereas my colt ar15 has malfunctioned to the point of reliability. Meaning that it reliably malfunctions at least once a mag

It is on its way back to colt now. When it returns it will be sold to make room for a NGA mp168
Colt has left a very bad taste in my mouth despite the faux-reliability charts seeming to read like a colt brochure, even nitpicking about parkerizing under the front site base.

my colt has all of the goodies listed on that chart and i wouldnt trust it as far as i could throw it.
my dpms has m4 feed ramps, everything is properly staked, no parkerizing under the FSB, no "h" buffer, etc etc etc, and it has functioned flawlessly through all sorts of testing.

The end result, real world, everyman user type difference?
that would be limited to price and prestige
 
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bigalshootmupper

New member
My opinion is you get what you pay for (+/-10%)
A good manufacturing company has quality control checks in every part of the process. This not only reduces the defects, but greatly improves the consistency of each process and each spec. Take, for example, the barrel material. The material may be specified from the vendor to have certain material specifications that have a tighter tolerance than a competitor. They probably buy that material from the same vendor as the competitor but specify a tighter tolerance, therefore costly more for that consistency. A quality company will check each lot with a sample check. A cheap company may just build up the rifle and when they discover a problem they quarantine, narrow down the bad lot, and rework or scrap. A quality company won't have problems that require massive rework or scrap so they can focus on fine tuning the quality.

Also, machine maintenance is very important. The number of shots per tool must be recorded and the tool changed out at a specified number of shots. A cheaper company may just use a sampling no go gauge to check when the tool wears out (better hope you get a rifle in the middle of that tool wear) where as a more expensive company may use that tool for about a third of the times that the cheap company will but all of the rifles will be the same. The cheap company may design the wear so that the beginning of the wear is slightly on one side of the spec and is then on the other side of the spec towards the end of the wear.

So basically, the best rifle ever produced from the cheap company will probably be very similar in performance as the expensive company's rifle. But the difference in the worst rifle of the cheap company is most likely much worse than the worst rifle of the expensive company.

But keep in mind that some companies can have bad management and cannot maintain organized quality control. They may cut costs in the wrong places and end up cutting quality controls. This could result in actually costing more to produce a lower quality rifle due to rework and scrap.

The bottom line is to stick with a known company that has the infrastructure to maintain a high level of quality control.
 
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PDXGS

New member
Mr Nice Guy....your going to love the NGA...I've got one of their JC 382s. I've put about 700 rounds through it in all kinds of Oregon winter weather and mud... all flawlessly and accurately.

As for the original poster-my advice is to shoot everything you can get your hands on and see what works for you. Not all are built the same, not all perform equally.
 
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MrNiceGuy

Moderator
Mr Nice Guy....your going to love the NGA...I've got one of their JC 382s. I've put about 700 rounds through it in all kinds of Oregon winter weather and mud... all flawlessly and accurately.
Click to expand...

I can't wait.
and believe you me, I will give it the proper "oregon break in" :D

Also, take note that most NGA rifles wouldnt pass the colt check list... as they choose to use 1/9 twist barrels... personally, i think that colt check list is the single most misleading yet listened to advice circulating
 
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jmr40

New member
Just because something is not milspec is not always a bad thing. It is possible it is "better" than milspec.
 
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RT

New member
In my opinion,
The differences lie in the details. Details like MPI and HPT bolts-- all of them, not just batch. HPT/MP barrels made of 4150 grade (CMV) steel, M16 BCG, F marked FSB, M4 feedramps, etc. Gas key and castle nut staking can be corrected but is kind of an indicator of overall attention to detail.
 
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