What a difference .03" makes!

ScottRiqui

New member
I'm loading up some .45 ACP 185 gr LSWC bullets for the first time. I had used an OAL of 1.19", and they absolutely wouldn't feed. They'd fit in the chamber just fine, but they weren't making it cleanly from the magazine to the chamber - not even once. The slide would end up about 1/4" out of battery every time.

I went home, shortened my test rounds slightly to 1.16", and now they feed just fine (at least when I pull the slide back and let go to chamber a round manually.) I still need to get out to the range and make sure they cycle "for real" before I make up any more, but I'm encouraged so far.
 

3kgt2nv

New member
alot of the problem with swc bullets in a 1911 is the feed ramp and barrel throat profile. but definitely finding the correct depth to seat will help. just make sure you dont run into the opposite problem where they feed and jam against the roof of the chamber
 

jmorris

New member
alot of the problem with swc bullets in a 1911 is the feed ramp and barrel throat profile.

This, I make mine so they will chamber an empty case from slidelock. I no longer have to hunt for a load that runs.
 
Same here. Can rack empty cases through all day. That said, try making up a dummy with a square base bullet seated backward and see how far out it will go before it won't feed. It shows the other element of the problem.
 

chris in va

New member
I'm still experimenting with the 160gr RNFP bullets for my 45 CZ. Some are jamming against the chamber roof, and with it's short leade I can't extend the OAL much. Too bad, these are interesting bullets.
 

DogoDon

New member
Is there a typo in the OP's post? 45 ACP cartridges usually have COALs of 1.25" to 1.275". ?? The COAL he listed sounds more like a 40 S&W cartridge. Or am I missing something?

Edit: Maybe he meant "WC" rather than "LSWC"?
 
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ScottRiqui

New member
No, it's a lead semi-wadcutter, with a fairly sharp shoulder. Setting the OAL at 1.16" leaves about 1/32 of the full-diameter part of the bullet outside the case.

As for what's "usual", I only just recently started loading .45 ACP so I don't yet have a feel for what's common, but looking at some of the other recipes in my manuals for bullets in the 185 gr range, I see OALs as short as 1.135" and as long as 1.275" (not all semi-wadcutters, obviously.)
 
The more "normal" thing if you don't have one of the common long chambers, is to regulate seating depth such that the leading edge of the bullet bearing surface (the full diameter cylindrical portion) to be about 0.020" forward of the mouth of a maximum length (0.898") case. It will be longer when the case is shorter, and .45 Auto brass does tend to shorten around half a thousandth per load cycle, rather than lengthen as high pressure rounds do. As a result of different bullet shapes, the COL can be all over the map when meeting this criterion. The Official SAAMI spec is 1.190"-1.275", but that just applies to round nose. Enough odd cast bullet shapes have been made that this doesn't begin to cover everything that's available.

One thing you do need to watch out for is that pressure can rise significantly as you seat bullets deeper because you are asking the powder to start making gas in a tighter confinement. This is particularly true of short pistol case ammo because a small increase in seating depth represents a big percentage reduction of the total powder, where in a longer case or one with a bottleneck it represents a smaller percentage and it therefore less critical to pressure. Speer, I think it was, at one point had an example of a 9 mm going to over 60,000 psi because of deep seating. If you increase seating depth, back the load off and work it up again while watching for pressure signs.

What the above means is, for any particular powder, the deeper you seat the bullet, the less velocity you can get using that powder before you exceed pressure limits. Most folks will have observed that they get more velocity seating deeper, thinking they've got it for free, but actually the pressure has gone up. Fortunately, most standard loads have some wiggle room, and as long as they don't go much over +P limits, that covers their backside.

In .45 Auto, QuickLOAD says my cases (26 grains water overflow capacity) have about 15 grains water capacity under the bullet when a Hornady 230 grain FMJ ENC bullet is seated to 1.270" (the number I use for it). Each 0.100" deeper takes about 4 grains of capacity away, or 40 grains per inch. If I seat the bullet to 1.190", or 0.08" deeper, I then have 0.08 × 40 gr/in or, 3.2 grains less water capacity or 11.8 grains water capacity. If I used a 5.0 grain charge of Bullseye originally, but want to keep pressure constant, I need to reduce that charge. A rough approximation for the reduction it is to multiply the original charge by the ratio of the new water capacity to the old water capacity raised to the power of 5/8 or the power of 0.625. So, I have:

5.0 gr. Bullseye × ((11.8 gr. H2O / 15 gr. H2O)^0.625) =


5.0 gr. Bullseye × (0.79^0.625) =


5.0 gr. Bullseye × 0.86 = 4.3 gr. Bullseye

In reality the difference may by smaller because of the tendency of primers to unseat bullets before the powder gets burning in small volume cases. The thing is not to count on it and err on the low side if you can by assuming the formula is roughly correct, then working back up from there while watching for pressure signs.
 

ScottRiqui

New member
The more "normal" thing if you don't have one of the common long chambers, is to regulate seating depth such that the leading edge of the bullet bearing surface (the full diameter cylindrical portion) to be about 0.020" forward of the mouth of a maximum length (0.898") case.

Thanks for the practical explanation, Unclenick. By dumb luck, that's exactly where I ended up - with 0.020" of the cylindrical portion outside of the case mouth. I still need to get to the range tomorrow to make sure they'll feed under firing conditions, but I'm feeling good about it. Thanks also for the warning regarding reduced case capacity with deep-seated bullets. I'm using a starting load, and as long as they cycle the gun and are relatively accurate, I'll probably just stay there.
 

dunerjeff

New member
When I got my Quickload program , I started playing around with some of those "little things" ,like oal, temperature, and bore dia.compared to bullet dia. ect.... Some of those things were really an eye opener as to how dramatic the pressure rise would be with small changes. Obviously for the .45acp, changes were a little suttler than a 9mm or .40S&W. I now always keep those things in the back of my mind anytime I change a load. Oal differences of .010 to .015 were generally minor ,but .020 -.030 would start to get quite interesting, and the increase in pressure wasn't linear.

Take a upper-mid type load that was tested at 50F and set the bullet back .020 would make it a near max load,add 30F of a temp increase and parts start going south fast. I try to do all my testing at 65F to 75F as much as possible and change my charge every time I move the oal.
 

briandg

New member
I once bought nosler HP bullets for my 9mm. they weren't tapered, but were almost ball shaped. using the standard nosler data and measurement, and other load data, those things hung up in the leades and wouldn't even go into battery.

I tried adjusting seating down, but it was impossible. the minimal taper had the things catching before the slide could go into battery, and there was nothing that could convince me to keep pushing the bullets back until it would actually fire.
 

ScottRiqui

New member
Okay, here's an update (and a correction):

First, the correction - looking at the box of bullets again, they're actually described as a wadcutter, not a semi-wadcutter.

Now, the update - The OAL of 1.16" worked much better than 1.19" (which wouldn't work at all), but I still had 1-3 failures to feed in each magazine. The round would make it into the chamber, but the slide would end up just a smidge out-of-battery. I could usually push the slide forward with my thumb to get it to go the rest of the way.

Here's a picture of the bullet I'm using:

45acp_452_185_wc.jpg


Looking around on the web, I found another shooter using the same bullets, and this is how he loaded them to get them to feed reliably:

rae1vs.jpg


I made a dummy round to match the picture, and it works out to right at 1.135" OAL, which is about as short of an OAL I've seen for a .45 ACP round.

I've made up a batch at 1.135" and I'll try them tomorrow after work. Even at this length, I don't think that I'm seating the bullet excessively deep in the case, based on the short-nose design of the bullet. In other words, I think this is simply a pretty short bullet compared to other 185 gr .45 ACP bullets. Regardless, I'm using 5.0 - 5.1 gr of W231, so it's a conservative starting load.

I'll post another update tomorrow. Thanks again for all the help so far.
 

dunerjeff

New member
Did you slug your barrel to see if those bullets are the right size? Lead bullets are oversize and if your gun has a tight throat,your basically shaving the bullet down to size. I have 3 .45 barrels and the 1 Kart NM has a .4515 throat. If I have the "normal" .452 sized lead bullets it will do as you described,stop just short of locking up.If that is the case, after you fired a round,you will end up with a lot of lead shavings in your chamber and smeared down the bore. I would double check the sizes.
 

ScottRiqui

New member
Another update. 1.135" OAL worked much better than either 1.16" or 1.19", but I still had four or five failures out of 50 to go completely into battery. In all instances this time, I could get the slide to go the rest of the way with a press on the rear of the slide.

There's no lead shaving, and the barrel isn't leading up. I just think there's enough of a snag somewhere in the feeding that the extra drag is robbing the slide of just enough energy to keep it from going all the way into battery.

I'm going to seat the bullet a tiny bit deeper and see if I can resolve the last of the feeding issue. I'll post another update tomorrow after work.
 
You may need some barrel throating and feed ramp polishing. Not every gun likes those short SWC's very well.

BTW, that bullet is technically a semi-wadcutter. A true wadcutter is basically a straight cylinder with essentially square ends.
 

ScottRiqui

New member
BTW, that bullet is technically a semi-wadcutter. A true wadcutter is basically a straight cylinder with essentially square ends.

Yep, that's what I'm used to with my .38 Spl bullets, that's why I initially called this .45 bullet a semi-wadcutter in my original post. But looking at Proofmark's site, they have a different .45 bullet in 180 gr with a longer nose that they call a semi-wadcutter. I guess they just called their 185 gr bullet a "wadcutter" to denote that it has a shorter nose than their one they call a "semi-wadcutter".

The barrel looks pretty smooth, but I can see some faint machining marks on the feed ramp. If I do polish the feed ramp, should I be polishing through the black finish on the ramp down to the underlying metal, or just smooth out the surface of the black finish itself?

Unclenick - did you get my PM?
 

ScottRiqui

New member
Okay - last update for a while, I think. I went through 50 rounds of the LSWC set to an OAL of 1.12". It was about as reliable as when I had the OAL set to 1.135" yesterday, but unlike yesterday, the three or four failures couldn't be corrected by simply pushing the slide into battery - I had to cycle the slide to eject the jammed rounds.

I can't really go any shorter, since 1.12" OAL has the shoulder of the bullet even with the case mouth. I may be able to go longer, though. I've only gone as long as 1.19" with these rounds, but I think I can go out to 1.24" without exposing the lube groove. I'll at least make up a dummy round at that length tonight and see if it cycles by hand.

If not, I think I may just set these 185 gr LSWC bullets aside for a while until I either polish the feed ramp, or have put a few hundred different rounds through the gun to finish breaking it in and to see if the ramp gets any smoother through use.

My bullet order from Missouri Bullets arrived today, and it includes 500 lead round-nose 230 gr .45 ACP bullets. After the issues I've been having with the semi-wadcutters, these round-noses should be a piece of cake.
 

oldreloader

New member
I haven't used the 185 Gr SWC but wth the 200 Gr SWC I have to tighten the crimp down to .470 to get them to feed without problems.
 

ScottRiqui

New member
0.470" is what I settled on for my crimp as well. I've never used the 200 gr LSWC, but I may give them a try after I've used up this box of the 185. I'm just trying to find something lighter than 230 gr to use for range ammo.

I just made up a box of the 230 gr LRN - hopefully those shouldn't give me any issues tomorrow.
 
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