Weird guns being used in Ukraine

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ghbucky

New member
I recently saw a blog post about a youtube video with a guy reviewing footage ostensibly coming out of the Ukraine conflict commenting on the weapons in use.

I thought it was interesting how a war being fought in conditions of relative scarcity for both sides is also probably the most documented war in history.

Fair warning, I did not view the youtube video that the blog post is about, so I'm not making any claims about the veracity of anything in this blog post:

https://www.battleswarmblog.com/?p=54559

Some highlights from his take on the video:
PKM machine guns taken off armored vehicles and converted for individual use. Which is more difficult than it sounds, since the firing mechanism is triggered by an electric solenoid. “They had to rig up an entirely new firing system to rig up to these things, and quickly, and frankly I’m impressed. Ghetto gunsmith to ghetto gunsmith, crisp internet high five.”
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“Some poor Ivan got handed a squirrel killer (a Chinese QB-57 single shot air rifle) and was thrown into the middle of 21st century combat with drones and tanks and was told good luck, have fun. It’s no wonder a lot of young Russian men are leaving the country rather than being conscripted…nothing says the government cares about your well-being quite like being tossed into <redacted for language> combat with a Red Ryder from A Christmas Story.”
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And the big standout for me:
“There’s a lot of Russians now rolling around with
[American Thompson] .45 ACP submachine gun, AKA of course the Tommy Gun.” A legacy of Lend-Lease.
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Note:
I actually doubted this post would pass moderation, so I ran it by Shane Tuttle prior to posting. I think I followed his recommendation and haven't done anything here that has run afoul of moderation. Let me know if I'm off base.
 
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ghbucky

New member
I'd never heard of a "QB-57 single shot air rifle"

A quick google came up with this:
https://www.bakerairguns.com/product/industry-brand-qb57-sku-6508/
IMG_2576-600x450.jpg
 
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ballardw

New member
PKT might be the predecessor to the PKTM. Depends on the age of the AFV the remove the MG from. PKT was contemporary with when I worried about such things in the Army, i.e. 40 years ago.
 
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Recycled bullet

New member
That is a take down air rifle. You slightly draw the side cocker lever to unload the trunnion then the barrel can be threaded on or off with your fingers.

It makes cleaning, inspection and storage simple.

The tricky part when zeroing the gun is the huge distance between the sights plane and the barrel.

Qb57 is a spring piston air gun this has got to be a joke.
 
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44 AMP

Staff
What amazes me is that here we are in the most modern of military conflicts and the number of water cooled Maxim machine guns (invented in the 1880s, IIRC) is astounding.
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I don't know if I'd say the war in the Ukraine is the most modern of military conflicts. It is the most recent...:rolleyes:

The Maxim gun has served Great Britain, Germany, Russia, and many other nations, generally being the primary machine gun through WWI. The Soviet Union kept making their version through WWII, and a lot of them (And a lot of other Soviet equipment) were in the Ukraine when the Soviet Union ended.

Something often not well understood by those who haven't studied modern combat is the rate at which modern (and by that I mean WWII tech on up) combat uses up equipment.

And since your most modern, effective stuff is what gets sent to fight first, its also the first thing your nation runs short of. One single intense day of modern combat might use up or destroy a year's worth of peace time production of tanks or aircraft or artillery ammunition.

As combat continues, older, less capable equipment goes into front line service, because A) you have it, B) it still works, and C) you've got to use something, or you will lose the war. Applies to both sides...


Obviously they have Maxim guns, and ammo, and they do need to use them. So, they are using them.
 
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stinkeypete

New member
"Truth is the first casualty of War."

Lt. Stuckovaherea: "Sergent, what shall we do with Pvt. Dumassakova?"
Capt. Incharga: "Dumassakova is a menace! We can't trust him with a shovel, let alone rifle!"
Sgt. Oldskoolov: "Exactly, I know what give him! Good joke for laughing!"

Who knows what the story is on the air rifle. I find it far more likely that it's some propaganda thing than the simple fact that the Russians are out of rifles.

44 Amp is absolutely correct, though. Supply chain and logistics is of catastrophically important. This too has an old quote: "For the want of a nail, the horse was lost..."

I don't find the story about an air rifle to ring true. But recent stories I have read about efforts to get Eastern European ancient factories back on like to make "obsolete" artillery shells back online sounds very true to me. I live about 30 miles from an enormous area that was an Olin munitions factory complex made in haste in ww2.
 
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ballardw

New member
For those casually interested in "old" weapons this may be of interest.
The Soviet Union had something like 5 levels of units with, IIRC, 3 through 5 being the planned "reserves" at different levels of readiness, training and manning. The 5th level armored formation had T34/85 tanks from WW2 designated at least until the early 1980's with a rough estimate of somewhere around 15,000 in inventory.

I'm actually sort of surprised that footage of older tanks isn't circulating but maybe both sides a refurbishing the T-70 and T-62 vintage tanks before getting to the T-55 and T34.
 
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Double Naught Spy

New member
I don't know if I'd say the war in the Ukraine is the most modern of military conflicts. It is the most recent...
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LOL, you do realize you are just using a different synonym, right? Let me clarify with a definition: Modern - relating to the present or recent times as opposed to the remote past. - from the Oxford Language Dictionary.

In this context, the Ukraine War is our most modern as in relating to the present or recent times.
 
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44 AMP

Staff
Yes, in that context you are correct. In the context of a "modern war" being one where only what is considered modern equipment is used, the Ukraine is just our most recent war.
 
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ghbucky

New member
The big thing that is actually unique about Ukraine, I think, is that it is a war that is likely the most documented war in history due to the proliferation of smart phones.

I offer this opinion as a pure armchair general, so perhaps I have no clue what I'm talking about. But I have to wonder if the Eastern front in WW2 didn't see similar uses of antique weapons, but wasn't documented because who wanted to show their troops using crappy weapons?
 
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44 AMP

Staff
But I have to wonder if the Eastern front in WW2 didn't see similar uses of antique weapons, but wasn't documented because who wanted to show their troops using crappy weapons?
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Couple of points to consider, where do you draw the line for "antique" and why does "antique" mean "crappy"???

As far as documentation of what was used on the Eastern Front, consider everything from Soviet era sources to be suspect. German sources were also heavily influenced by their propaganda system, but not as much as the Soviets, regarding who used what, where, when.

As a fellow "armchair general" are you aware that the Waffen SS didn't get priority for the most "modern" weapons until about the middle of WWII?

I have photographs of SS troops armed with older "outdated" arms, rifles, SMGs and MGs during the first couple years of fighting on the Eastern Front.

EVERYONE fighting in WWII sent some of their troops into combat with "outdated" and "technically obsolete" guns, in some cases only slightly updated versions of 1890s designs. The Moisin Nagant rifle, the Mauser 98, the SMLE, our 1903 Springfields, etc, etc. NONE Of those was "cutting edge" tech during WWII, and while we take a bit of pride in the "modern" equipment used by our military in WWII, we still had entire combat units armed the 1903 Springfields in 1945. Not many, but there were some.

Despite Russian claims, I believe the Ukraine was not the aggressor nation, in the current war, they were invaded, and are using everything they can get their hands on that still shoots defending themselves.
 
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RickB

New member
Interesting about the Thompsons; apparently, every lend-lease Sherman tank was shipped with two Thompsons, but since Russia didn't use the .45 ACP cartridge, the guns were stored in a cave somewhere.
Numrich Arms was selling the Lyman rear sights for over $200 each, 10-15 years ago, but apparently didn't get them all?
 
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44 AMP

Staff
If you are implying that Numrich was selling the Lyman Ladder sights removed from Thompsons in storage somewhere in the former Soviet Union, I'd be skeptical. Not saying impossible sometimes the most implausible things do happen and the people who "scrouge" parts for Numrich (and a few others) are very good at what they do.

Still, I have doubts, considering some facts, first being essentially nothing came out of the Soviet Union until there was no more Soviet Union.

Next. looking at the numbers of Thompson equipped tanks that arrived in the Soviet Union, both M3s, M3Lights and Shermans, the number of Thompsons MIGHT be as high as 6,000, but I expect it was actually less than that.

Now figure in an unknown, the number of Thompsons that the Soviets got which actually HAD the Lyman ladder sight on them. Only the M1928 (and 1921) model guns had the ladder sight. We adopted the M1 SMG in early 42, and even before that, the ladder sight had been dropped from production 1928s in favor of a simple "L" rear sight which was also put on the M1 and M1A1 SMGs. And, by 44 the M3/M3A1 was replacing the M1 series guns, I suspect the number of ladder sight guns delivered to the Soviet Union wasn't all that many. No proof, just my suspicions.

Now, some enterprising soul might have found a few crates of Thompsons, in a former Soviet storage (cave?:rolleyes:) and then, what, removed the sights and sold them to Numrich?? Possible I guess. Likely? I don't think so.

Almost anything that shoots might show up in the Ukraine so maybe there's a few Tommy guns running over there. No idea unless someone gets a picture of one in use.

one gun I NOT expect to see there, or anywhere would be the Chau Chat...;)
 
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Aguila Blanca

Staff
44 AMP said:
If you are implying that Numrich was selling the Lyman Ladder sights removed from Thompsons in storage somewhere in the former Soviet Union, I'd be skeptical. Not saying impossible sometimes the most implausible things do happen and the people who "scrouge" parts for Numrich (and a few others) are very good at what they do.
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Let's not forget that, for a time, Numrich WAS Auto-Ordnance. They made and sold Thompsons (the semi-auto version) until they sold the Auto-Ordnance brand to Kahr Arms. And ladder sights that Numrish has (or had) may very well have been ones that they made..
 
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44 AMP

Staff
I had a Auto Ordnance 1927A1, Deluxe gun with the ladder sight. Gun came with a Kahr manual, but was an Auto Ord gun, didn't say Kahr anywhere on it. SO, it was one of the guns in the inventory when Kahr took over, not one made under their ownership.

Numrich owned Auto Ord for a LONG time. I heard it was Numrich (the guy forget his full name) that designed the semi auto interior to meet ATF approval so they could make and sell semi auto Tommyguns.

My understanding of what is going on in the Ukraine is that along with their armed forces there are a lot of folks fighting that would be classed as "irregulars" and they are using whatever they can gets their hands on to defend their homeland. I would.

Will the Ukraine be another "Afghanistan"? Meaning will the Russians fail and eventually leave? I hope so, though I'd like to see the Ukrainians do better than that, and actually drive them out. I would cheer me up a lot to see a Ukraine victory paraded in Red Square Moscow, but I don't see that as a realistic dream, at this point, anyway...:rolleyes:
 
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