Weekend warrior rides again...and questions?

Oleg Volk

Staff Alumnus
(pictures to follow when I have time)

Shot a "new" $60 Mosin-Nagant this weekend (probably a 1917 Remington production which was re-barreled and re-stocked by Tikka in 1943). Last owners were real effing slobs but the slight rust cleaned up with oil and a paper towel. Balance on that rifle was so good that I could fire it accurately off-hand, a feat which I can't do with any other rifle quite so well. Recoil and muzzle blast were downright mild, certainly milder than any Enfield I've ever shot, probably because of the long barrel. Sights were surprisingly clear, though I have no illustions about the 3200 pace setting being useful. At 25m, I could hit a pop can, at 50, white rocks about 6" in diameter. Not precision performance but better than a stock Yugo Mauser and with little effort on my part. Fired five rounds of 204gr steel case soft points and about sixty rounds of 140-something gr brass-cased ball. No failures to extract (unlike every other Mosin I've shot) but it did have three instances in which it didn't want to close on a fresh round. I had to hit the bot handle on the nearest tree to make it close because {gripe #1} Mosins don't provide good leverage on the bolt. Also, the rifle gets hot FAST and careless handling can get the user burned...ten rounds over five minutes is all it takes to warm up the barrel significantly.
I have not been able to undo the barrel band screws (which might turn in the direction opposite of normal)...is there a trick to getting them loose without stripping the screw heads?

Shot some 60-grain Aguila SSS .22 ammo in a Mossberg 144LSA. The bullets stabilized just fine and seemed as accurate as 40-grain ammo with much less noise...and a 3" higher point of impact at 25m. Since the report was no louder than 22CB, it stands that 60-grain bullet is better for varmints than a 20-grain bullet.

Tried a red dot on an AR15. In spite of my apprehensions, it performed very well and enabled much faster reactive shooting up close and accurate shooting at 150m. A real win over irons which I will retain for backup only. Found that it takes more than one .223 M855 round to stop a squirrel with a center mass shot. The critter ran a dozen yard after than before being hit again and stopping for good. Range, about 15m for the first shot and 10m for the second. So much for .223 being adequate for large animals, like poodles!

The rifle was new and had a tight chamber. Although I had no failures to feed or extract, I had much trouble ejecting unfired rounds. {gripe #2} AR15 doesn't give much leverage on the charging handle. What's the trick for unloading a stuck catridge? I saw an upper with left side cocking a la FAL but don't know if that would improve matters. Toward the end of the day, unfired rounds extracted more easily but I can forsee a day when I would have a stick round in the chamber and need to clear it. Or is this one of the main problems with AR15?

Also, how does one take the ejector out of the AR15 bolt?

Shot 7.62x54 SP at a steel plate (8mm Mauser of any make penetrates, 303 doesn't). Left a deep dent but failed to penetrate. Ball left a deeper dent and the core penetrated, the jacket stayed in the hole. .223 Wolf 55gr left an unimpressive cavity with no trace on the reverse side. I shot Wolf to torture-test the gun, it worked fine.

Other thoughts: shadows are good...keeps one cool, harder to see, keeps sights more visible. Wood makes poor cover (takes a lot to stop any rifle bullet, even .223 penetrated big stumps and thick trunks), rock makes poor cover (chunks make secondary projectiles for about two feet around) but soil stops most bullets pretty well.

Double-taps in a rifle with a muzzle brake still don't work as well as slower aimed fire. Shot at a rabbit at dusk at the range of 10m with IMI ball and did three doubles trying to put it down as fast as possible. Three hits, most likely first shots in each pair. Two hits in the torso and one in the shoulder and it still took the rabbit about two minutes to expire. That doesn't bode well for stopping determines humans from staying hostile, no matter what "energy dump" happens. I think this validates Shawn Dodson's view that nothing short of a CNS hit puts 'em down fast enough for comfort. Maybe soft points would have worked better but I am not sure it would have mattered enough...the damage was severe, just that mammals are tough. In general, I am not eager to do combat even if I get to shoot from an ambush with a rifle. Small arms are just too small to do in the enemy reliably. That said, sometimes fighting better than the alternative.

I am happy to note that I ran several miles with a sling-less AR15, several magazines and a back-up pistol in 85-95 degree humid heat, up and down wooded hills and wasn't out of breath. That may be a bigger accomplishment for this summer than improvements in riflery. Shooting got better, too -- more trigger time, better firing positions (prone, sitting, squatting, kneeling and standing...but I can't figure out how to use side support such as a tree trunk) and better sights. Shorter barrel (16" over 20") turned out a real win in the field though I didn't expect it: not because of weight (the red dot added what little shorter barrel took away) but for the handier length in the brush.
 

MatthewVanitas

New member
Zdrasvy Mr. Volk,


Re: AR-15 ejector/extractor: are you referring to the metal strip which extends up to the bolt face and digs into the extracting grove? If so, there should be a very small pin running perpindicular to the bolt about 1/3 of the way back from the bolt face. You have to press down on the extractor (towards the rear I believe) to ease up the tension on the pin, and then push it out with a very small pointy object. That should leave you with an extractor, extractor pin, bolt, and the spring that keeps tension on the extractor. Does this cover your question?

YMMV, but I strongly reccommend getting a good, basic civvy or military manual for AR-15/M16. That should make troubleshooting and the tricks of maintenance easier. I got a reprint of the Army's old M1911 manual for my Sistema, and it's very helpful indeed.
In general military manuals, either acquired from booksellers or, in certain cases, freely posted by the gov't online, have all kinds of slick stuff.

Congrats on the physical conditioning: it's a rare virtue these days. Hope you didn't terrify any nature-lovers as you charged through the bush.

Re: your firefight w/ bunny. As Pushkin might have put it...

Ya nevo strelyal,
Krolika yeshyo byt ne mozhet...

Anyway. Congrats though.
 

Dfariswheel

New member
In order:
The barrel band screws may be real tight, rusted or gummed in place, or staked. The only thing to do is get a good fitting screwdriver and try to get them loose, hopefully without stripping the threads. Usually a good screwdriver will break them loose.

To open the AR bolt, place the butt on the ground pull the op handle as far to the rear as it will go, pull on the op handle as you bump the butt on the ground. If done too hard this can break the buttstock. KEEP YOUR HEAD AWAY FROM THE MUZZLE.

To remove the AR ejector, push out the tiny roll pin near the front of the bolt, NOT the larger solid pin which holds the extractor.
 

C.R.Sam

New member
More on the band screws. A little Break Free or penetrating oil overnight. GOOD fitting screwdriver firmly in slot and tap handle a few times sharply. Don't over do anything. Sometimes breaks em loose enough to unscrew. Heat from a soldering iron is good too. Just heat up the screw.

Sam
 

Oleg Volk

Staff Alumnus
Mr.Bun & Family were raiding flower beds and I was asked to keep their numbers down. Mostly I shot at rocks and tree stumps.

As Vysotski would have said: "Liho bjot trehlinejka, priamo kak na voijne" from the song Pobeg na Ryvok ("The three-line rifle hits swell, just like in war-time" from The Escape Dash).

What's the difference between "penetrating oil" and just "oil"?Pobeg na ryvok (MP3) Unfortunately, you have to know Russian, the lyrics cannot be translated without losing 90% of the flavor and about 50% of the meaning...
 
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labgrade

Member In Memoriam
For shooting off the side of a tree, grasp the tree with your off-hand & extend your (off-hand) trigger finger upwards & brace the rifle between the tree & finger.

I've never had the rifle "jump" off a tree doing this as it most certainly can if braced directly on a horizontal hard surface.
 

MessedUpMike

New member
Penetrating oil does just that, it penentrates..
It's got a different viscocity (thinner) than lubricating oil, it'll break down rust faster, and fit into the tiny grooves in the screws that are holding your stuff so tight.
As for the AR,
What type of ammo are you using? Laquer coated ammo does bad thing to the chambers, especially when hot. What brand AR is it? Some brands have tighter chambers than others? Need more information.
 

Cav Arms

New member
What is the make of your AR upper and what is the barrel chambered for? 5.56mm and .223 Rem are not the same. The best bet for feeding the widest range of ammo if to make sure you have a 5.56mm chamber (a smith can ream it out to 5.56mm for you in a few min.). Also as mentioned, saty away from the Steel Cased ammo, will also case feed problem. I have also had bad luck with South African Ammo (the newer stuff).
 

Oleg Volk

Staff Alumnus
AR upper was Rock River Arms and I suspect it has a match chamber. I used Wolf (just to see if I could get failures), PMP, IMI and LC-stamped ball of unknown origin. Had problems with extracting un-fired rounds before I used any Wolf, ammo was IMI and LC. Problem went away towards the end of the session.
 

Art Eatman

Staff in Memoriam
Oleg, a small can of "Liquid Wrench" is a Good Thing to have around when dealing with any threaded critter that's been in place for a long time. It's better than WD 40. Like Sam said, put a few drops on a rusty bolt and leave it overnight...

:), Art
 

MessedUpMike

New member
Ok That explains a lot.
There is a big debate about how much 5.56 and .223 differn and whether or not it really matters. To an extent it does. If you have a match grade upper (.223) it has a tighter chamber than a NATO standard (5.56). A match grade chamber is going to be even tighter still as a tighter chamber produces a more accurate shot (supposedly). I suspect if your at the same level as the rest of us it doesn't really matter. Have a 'smith knock it out to 5.56 and it'll shoot anything you have, in trade you'll lose the ability to put the round in a gnats ass at 1000 meters, but gnats are stupid and will get closer.
As far as wolf ammo , YIKES!!!! Wolf gets finicky in a big chambered rifle like a Bushmaster, in a precision shooting gun like your upper it's a recipe for distaster. Is it a new upper? If not the previous owner may have made the same mistake. The problem would appear to go away as the chamber heats up and the crap in the barrel softens. Take it apart and strip it good. You may find the problem there.
You might want to go to www.Md-AR15.com and check out the sight there. They might have more useful suggestions to.

Mike
 

Oleg Volk

Staff Alumnus
Previous owner shot less than 60 rounds in it. I normally won't use Wolf but thought it useful to see if the rifle would function with lousy ammo. Trying to see if it is reliable enough for social work.
 

MatthewVanitas

New member
Three-line rifle?

Does the "line" refer to the length of the rifle in some way, some form of obsolete measure like arshin and verst? Or is it about proof-marks? If you happen to know, that would be interesting indeed.

On the vague tangent of Russian culture and rifles, I was recently looking at a picturebook about the White Army of the Russian Revolution. They showed an illustration of a kulak (a self-made successful peasant that wanted nothing of collectivism, right?). He was holding an "obryoz", which is a Nagant rifle hacked down into a bolt-action pistol. Brutal looking puppy. According to the book, kulaks would hide those in their coat, go about their business, and launch surprise attacks on Red Army soldiers. Fascinating period of history.

Mr. Volk: do I miss the linguistics, or does "obryoz" literally translate to "hacked-off" or something suchlike? From ob=around and rezat'=to cut?

Folk culture and rifles make a great combination...
 

Oleg Volk

Staff Alumnus
Obrez does refer to a cut-off rifle. I've never seen them in person but examples inmovies lacked front sights. I suspect that Berdan or Krnka rifles were as common as Mosins, as Berdan pattern was popular enough for hunting to become a colloquial for "hunting gun" (berdanka).

Kulaks, AFAIK, were pretty much wiped out by the late 1920s. Tuchachevski, Budennij and other butchers did a good imitation of Grozny over much of Russian, Ukraine and parts of Belorus...used cannon indiscriminantly on populated areas.

One of the songs of the time went something like this:

I neslyshno shla mest' cherez les, po tropinkam chto nam neznakomi
Gulko uhal kulatskij obrez, da nochyami goreli Ukomi

A silently revenge went through the forests, by pathways unknown to us
Kulak's sawed-offs boomed and disctrict committees burned in the nights

An American source of 1921 stated that the horrible excesses of the Bolshevicks cannot last...boy were they wrong!
 

labgrade

Member In Memoriam
Readdressing this thread & just have to wonder - must have missed this somehow on the first read-through ....

"Found that it takes more than one .223 M855 round to stop a squirrel with a center mass shot. The critter ran a dozen yard after than before being hit again and stopping for good. Range, about 15m for the first shot and 10m for the second. So much for .223 being adequate for large animals, like poodles!

Shot at a rabbit at dusk at the range of 10m with IMI ball and did three doubles trying to put it down as fast as possible. Three hits, most likely first shots in each pair. Two hits in the torso and one in the shoulder and it still took the rabbit about two minutes to expire."


***!?

Sorry, Oleg & et al, but unmittigated BS - you never hit 'em (rabbit or squirrel) to begin with - maybe with spray from a low hit & gettin' grit on 'em.

There is no small critter alive alive that can take a center-mass .223/military ball anything hit & do anything but (mostly) detonate - die instantly, most assuredly. That at 200 yards, & at 15?

Jocular. I think the advertising term is called Ocean Spray. ;)

You missed a rabbit at 15 yards & need better pratctice with your rifle-work.

Sounds like nice running, though .....
 

Oleg Volk

Staff Alumnus
Maybe you are right and it just seemed like I hit that squirrel...but there wasn't anything except loose soil to act as shrapnel.
 

Bogie

New member
Oleg, do me a favor, and don't use FMJ ammo for critter shooting. Even with center mass hits, it's likely to pass through with minimal disruption.

If you want, I can cook you some nice .223 varmint loads.
 

labgrade

Member In Memoriam
"... don't use FMJ ammo for critter shooting. Even with center mass hits, it's likely to pass through with minimal disruption."

Whatever. :rolleyes: & (again) BS.

You shoot a rabbit with anything .223 Rem centermass & it's a croaker - period.

Hell. I shoot 'em all the time, chest shots, at 50 yards with .22 LR solids & they die on the spot - maybe a 10 foot run, if that. High velocity rounds like a .223 Rem anywhere body-shots blows 'em up. Kill 'em!? Duh!

Point is - he didn't hit it. Not with that stated.

No squirrel or rabbit takes 2-3 center-mass shots from a .223 Rem at 15 yards & runs away.
 
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