Webley Revolver repair or not to repair

[Armybrat]

Saw this posted on a sportsboard - your thoughts, please:

Webley Revolver repair or not to repair


I mentioned to my Dad that I was planing on getting a handgun mostly for self defense, and to see if i wanted to pick up shooting as a hobby (like I need another one). He said I could have his old military surplus 45 he bought at Montgomery Wards for $19.95 when he moved to Houston in '58. I had not seen the gun since I was very young and had visions of a sweet old 1911 dancing in my head when he comes out and hands me a 1915 Webley Mark VI .445 cut for .45 ACP that has the name of a Seargent-Major in the Royal Field Artillery engraved in it. It was definitely used in WWI and probably WWII. I thank him profusely, but recognize immediately that this isn't a self defense gun, but a cool old piece of history that maybe i could shoot a couple times just to say I did.

I knew there was a problem when i cocked it and the cylinder rotating about a quarter inch side to side. Later after partly cleaning 50+ years of who knows what I noticed that where the top of the trigger engages the cylinder when cocked back for SA, the metal was mashed to one side. I thought it was from abuse and found a replacement trigger from apexgunparts. The barrel bracket for the top break was scratched up, so I got that as well. When the trigger came in I tore the revolver apart, and when I got the old trigger out I noticed that it wasn't just mashed to one side, it had been ground. I thought that was curious, but continued my reassembly. The barrel bracket and trigger were a lot tighter than before. Once it was complete I noticed that there was still some side to side movement, but it was less than a 1/16" now. That was better but not what I expected. I am no gun expert, so I don't know if that would still be safe operation, and it seems to be made that way.

In the back of my mind the fact that the trigger was ground kept gnawing at me, so I put a 3/8 rod down the barrel and it hit the cylinder on one side when the cylinder was locked up no matter which way I rotated it. That is when I realized the top of the trigger had been ground just so the cylinder would line up with the barrel. Now I am thinking that the frame is bent.

These guns converted to .45 ACP are only worth about $500, and certainly less in this condition, so I am wondering if it is worth trying to have it repaired, or even if repair is possible. Any advice?

It doesn't have any sentimental value to either my Dad or I, but just the same I think I will hold onto it for a while, and maybe sell it to a war memorabilia collector down the road. In the mean time I have come to like the idea of shooting a .45 ACP revolver that uses full moon clips and am thinking about looking for a S&W Model 25-2.

 

[James K]

First, firing factory .45 ACP in those guns is not recommended; some have had the chambers blown out because the .45 ACP generates about half again as much pressure as the .455 cartridge the gun was designed for.

Second, it sounds like someone has worked on that gun, but note that it is normal for that Webley cylinder to have a good bit of rotational movement when the hammer and trigger are at rest. When the gun is cocked, the cylinder should lock up tight.

Now a more serious issue. The gun is old and has problems. Further, it can't use .45 ACP, even handloads, without moon clips. (In that gun, the clip doesn't only allow ejection; it supports the case against the firing pin. Without a clip, the .45 ACP falls into the chamber.) The owner can use .45 Auto Rim, but those are fairly hard to get, and also should be loaded down from factory loads. I strongly recommend that he retire the old warrior and obtain a more modern (and maybe smaller and lighter) gun for carry.

Jim

 

[DG45]

I have no idea whether the OP's gun is safe to shoot or not, but Jim, 45 Auto Rim is not that hard to get anymore. Let's encourage owners who could use that caliber to investigate the possibilities. There are several different recipes being made in 45 Auto Rim out there. These allow an owner of old revolvers chambered for 45 ACP/moon clips, to use rimmed revolver cartridges instead. There are several different load choices availiable in 45 Auto Rim; ie., by using 45 Auto Rim cartridges, these owners are no longer are restricted to the old 230 grain ball 45 ACP loads.

I use 45 Auto Rim caliber 255 grain SWC's from Black Hills in my 1937 Brazilian Contract S&W 45 revolver. That's a more powerful load than the standard 45 ACP 230 grain ball ammo, with a better defense bullet to boot. However; it's too powerful a load for the OP's gun even if that gun is safe to shoot. What he needs is first to ascertain whether his gun is safe to shoot. If it is, then he needs a 45 Auto Rim cartridge that's loaded down to the specs of the old British 455. I'm not sure any manufacturer currently offers that, but its worth checking some ammo manufacturers out to see. If there isn't, then he could buy 45 Auto Rim brass (Starline carries it I think) and handload his own recipes.

 

[barryhud]

1917 S/W .455

I have one of those old guns, been in the family a long time. I have some 45 auto rim that loads and shoots all right. I see that Midway has Fiocchi 455 Webley, loaded to mil spec. I put a cylinder load thru it maybe once a year and then clean it. I like to have a little ammo for each gun, thats just me.

 

[James K]

You can't fire .455 Webley in a revolver that has been converted to use .45ACP or .45 AR, as the headspace is too great. You would have to either use some kind of clip or keep the gun pointed up in the air.

Hi, DG45,

The OP was referring only to the use of .45 ACP so I kept the answer to that caliber. I am aware of the .45 AR (there are several boxes on the shelf in front of me) and that it is back on the market. But I am also aware that while the SAAMI pressure spec now is 15,000 cup for .45 AR, and there are even lighter loads, it once was 20,000 to match the trajectory of the .45 ACP, and loading manuals used the same data as for the .45 ACP. That is why I don't give a blanket endorsement to use .45 AR in those old Webleys, many of which were designed for black powder loads in the 12-13,000 cup range. I prefer to advise against using any factory loads in those guns and to keep handloads well down.

Jim

 

[EdInk]

Put it away and buy something else to actually shoot. Cool old gun though.