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Wearing armor is MUCH more effective than having super gear and skill
- Thread starter Hardin
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Hundreds of well intentioned law enforcement officials doing their best under adverse conditions most will never encounter have proven that often times skill and situational awareness and skill at arms in not enough.
Those who survived serve as a powerful reminder that one cannot always be in control all of the time.
Those who did not serve as the ultimate reminder.
The slant of your post, is both ignorant and offensive at the same time to families and friends of those who belong to both categories.
Those who survived serve as a powerful reminder that one cannot always be in control all of the time.
Those who did not serve as the ultimate reminder.
The slant of your post, is both ignorant and offensive at the same time to families and friends of those who belong to both categories.
JohnO, Hardin will be the first to point that out with a hand-in-pocket draw head shot from his .22 LR pistol in one tenth of a second.
If armor nullifies skill, then most encounters would hinge on luck. Not so. I've always been one to say that trendy flash and the latest gear will never replace clean technique. Armor is NOT more effective than skill and is no substitute unless you are being shot centermass with a pea shooter. A good vest hit with a powerful pistol round will break ribs easily. Not to mention high powered rifle rounds.
I'll take someone (with a reasonable handgun) with good tactics and no armor over a similarly equipped armored blunderer.
Hardin, welcome to the Forum, by the way. I see you just joined today.
If armor nullifies skill, then most encounters would hinge on luck. Not so. I've always been one to say that trendy flash and the latest gear will never replace clean technique. Armor is NOT more effective than skill and is no substitute unless you are being shot centermass with a pea shooter. A good vest hit with a powerful pistol round will break ribs easily. Not to mention high powered rifle rounds.
I'll take someone (with a reasonable handgun) with good tactics and no armor over a similarly equipped armored blunderer.
Hardin, welcome to the Forum, by the way. I see you just joined today.
Erik, don't worry. The slant was very intentional. He did the same thing back on the shooters talk forum. Fortunately, the moderators here are on the ball. No offense to Hardin, of course. He seems to have extreme views re: LEOs due to, well, he can fill in the details.
He does make some good points, however. I will give him that.
He does make some good points, however. I will give him that.
Hmm. Wonder if I qualify as a "bumbling cop"?
How do we define skill? I define skill as being well-trained in various problem-solving techniques.
I like to think of myself as trained and skilled enough to place a couple of shots into the cranial-orbital area if my first couple of rounds into the COM don't work.
Which do tend to negate the advantage gained by armour.
I have spent a bit of a law enforcement career wearing the lightest, most flexible IIA armour vest I could locate for patrol and sometimes no armour at all.
Is an armour vest good? You betcha.
Does it make up for lack of skills? Not by a long shot.
Hardin, welcome to the Firing Line. Glad to have you aboard.
LawDog
How do we define skill? I define skill as being well-trained in various problem-solving techniques.
I like to think of myself as trained and skilled enough to place a couple of shots into the cranial-orbital area if my first couple of rounds into the COM don't work.
Which do tend to negate the advantage gained by armour.
I have spent a bit of a law enforcement career wearing the lightest, most flexible IIA armour vest I could locate for patrol and sometimes no armour at all.
Is an armour vest good? You betcha.
Does it make up for lack of skills? Not by a long shot.
Hardin, welcome to the Firing Line. Glad to have you aboard.
LawDog
George Hill
Staff Alumnus
Lawdog - if you can hold a cup of coffee, a pastry of some sort, and at the same time while driving - talk on the radio... Then your NOT a Bumble.
THAT takes skill and talent.
THAT takes skill and talent.
I never said that all cops are bumblers
nor that armor makes up for lack of ALL skills. Read my post again, and those of you who know cops know that many ARE bumblers, and note that I said armor is better than TOP skill and gear, (as vs fair to middling skill and gear) This server keeps giving me new topic boxes when I click on reply box.
nor that armor makes up for lack of ALL skills. Read my post again, and those of you who know cops know that many ARE bumblers, and note that I said armor is better than TOP skill and gear, (as vs fair to middling skill and gear) This server keeps giving me new topic boxes when I click on reply box.
I also never said .1 sec pocket draw
nor recommend use of .22 for serious shooters. Said .40 sec for react, draw, and hit chest at 3=4 ft, or head in another .30 sec. That can be done. Most people lack the skill necessary to do much more than bluff, and a ..22 is as good a bluff as any. Many attackers do flee at just the sight of a ready gun. Others do so at shots fired that miss, and more do so at the first hit on their person, any where and any load. Trouble is, SOME react like a wounded dog,and try to kill you all the harder once you wound them. Naturlly a feeble load like the .22, 25, 32, most 380's and most 38 snub loads should be aimed at the head./ Many attacks are at ranges of less than 6 ft, because the attacker has no gun, and you will be hard pressed to justify shooting such a man beyond 10 ft or so. You can bring Ayoob to court and show Tueller's video if you wish, most little old ladies on the jury will be horrified at you shooting ANYONE.
nor recommend use of .22 for serious shooters. Said .40 sec for react, draw, and hit chest at 3=4 ft, or head in another .30 sec. That can be done. Most people lack the skill necessary to do much more than bluff, and a ..22 is as good a bluff as any. Many attackers do flee at just the sight of a ready gun. Others do so at shots fired that miss, and more do so at the first hit on their person, any where and any load. Trouble is, SOME react like a wounded dog,and try to kill you all the harder once you wound them. Naturlly a feeble load like the .22, 25, 32, most 380's and most 38 snub loads should be aimed at the head./ Many attacks are at ranges of less than 6 ft, because the attacker has no gun, and you will be hard pressed to justify shooting such a man beyond 10 ft or so. You can bring Ayoob to court and show Tueller's video if you wish, most little old ladies on the jury will be horrified at you shooting ANYONE.
This server keeps giving me new topic boxes when I click on reply box.
I can pretty much (100%) assure you that you are not hitting the "Post Reply" button if you are getting a new topic screen.
Moving to the General Discussion forum...
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