We talks Hand Guns - Can we talk Self Defense against....

stdalire

New member
We talk Handguns - Can we talk Self Defense Against Handguns too.

Okay, you're on a heated arguments, both of you have loaded guns either cocked & locked or revolver. The situation cannot be settled already by discussions. You notice that the agressor is about to draw his gun. Are you going to draw also. Note that he is within your reach, what will be your defense response.

Thanks
 
Depending on what state you live in, this situation will unfold. In Oregon, "Heated Argument" means mutual agreed combat. Better be ready to fight, no guns. Fighting is no excuse to draw a firearm, use of deadly force is a no, no. If you have midieval tendencies, leave your firearm at home. And, if you get caught fighting and in the possession of a firearm, most likely you will both end in jail (be someone's girlfriend for the night). Loose your CCW privileges. If you CCW in the state of Oregon, arguments are not a option. You walk away! You become the most courteous person on earth. Someone flips you off, you say, thank you. Get a bit of road rage, pull over. Get spit on your face, walk away! So, here is the best defense to your hypothetical, don't get into the heated argument in the first place.

Robert
 

stdalire

New member
Robert, a good answer, but assuming that the arguments really cannot be contained and leads to real fight and the agressor has the intention to shoot you, how would you defend yourself. Can you just walk away from it and shoot you at the back.

My purpose here is how to defend ourselves from a close confrontation. I should have given a case like below as illustration.

Case:
Location: X-Night Club
You just happened to get inside the club, you tabled one of the girls. Suddenly, a BG got in, it so happened the girl is his girl friend, he is enraged and accept no explanation from you and about to draw his gun but he is within your reach, how would you react. Regardless you are an LE, Civil or Mil. but the the point is to save our life. If we talk bad guy he is really bad and determined to shoot you, is there any kinds of move to do.

Thanks
 

Mikey

New member
OK, I'll play...

First, in my state, it would be highly illegal to be armed in a night club so you're screwed. Second, if the BG is already reaching for his gun, it's already too late for yours so you're screwed. Third, REALLY bad guys are usually pretty darned good at fistycuffs so, unless you're pretty "bad" yourself, you're screwed.

The only possible chance you would have, in my opinion, would be an EXTREMELY fast and EXTREMELY violent blow to the center of the face (fist or palm strike) hopefully breaking the nose and causing large quantities of tears in the eyes to obscure vision - followed immediately by a forceful front kick to the groin. If he didn't already have his gun out this should distract him for a few seconds.

At this point your choices expand - 1) Grab the girl and use her as a human shield while escaping. 2) Grab chairs, tables, band instruments or whatever else you can lay your hands on and beat the SOB to a bloody pulp or 3) NOW you could use your gun but you better be ready to go to jail!

If, however, the scene unfolded in a location where you COULD be legally armed - palm strike to the face or side block to the gun arm while drawing your gun and firing from the retention position.

Mikey
 

Chris Orndorff

New member
Whatever you do, remember that your actions will be viewed as to their REASONABLENESS. Also, be prepared to very articulately explain your PERCEPTION of the situation, said perception leading you to take the course of action you did.

I like Robert's answer: walk away. The best way to win a gunfight is to not be in one.
 

Rob43

New member
Rob and Mike, you guys are good. Excellent advice. The only advice I might add is after the palm strike to push away to get distance then draw. Leave ASAP!
 

Glenn E. Meyer

New member
Rob43, a question. After you leave,do
you call the police to report the incident?

The other dude might call them and say
you were in his face and then smashed him
up. Other buddies might support him.

Several trainers I have listened to make
the point that you want to be first to
make the police report.
 

Fats

New member
I highly recommend reading (if you haven't already)
'The Law of Self Defense: A Guide for the Armed Citizen' by Andrew F. Branca

Very in depth about the legal process involved in claiming self defense as a defense.
 

stdalire

New member
I am reading and looking at your post's of the best move to defend ourselves in such scenario.

I know that every responsible gun holder, if possible we will always get away from trouble but if we have no room to go out from it, shall we still say, Oh! I am a responsible CCW, afraid to go to Jail, afraid of being in legal litigation etc. Sometimes, being so much defensive will not protect us from imminent danger.

Mikey, you did what a real man must do, and using the human shield while going away if you can still do it as best way to escape of death and other legal problems. Many won't accept that way. But I will do it to save my life and my family as a whole.

I am observing why the average Joe even already entrapped in red situation still he has to think the best way to escape legal problems, whereas, the LE's even just mere suspicion of their self endangerment then the trigger will be automatically Squeezed no matter the direction of the flying missile. Is that how civilized and very much law abiding of the CCW holder who is not an LE.

Why don't we try to apply the mitigating and justifying circumstances no matter who is the agressor if we are really in danger and prove in court the truth if we are in that situation.

My friend who defend himself in such situation. He did this way. When the BG is about to draw his gun, my friend immediately grab the BG's drawing hand and help him squeeze the trigger directed to the BG himself. So simple and my friend acted in self defense everything was resolve. It is the best defense I think when the opponent is at very closed range. Help the drawer hands to pull his gun and help his hand squeze the trigger while the muzzle is pointed at him. Remember that when someone is drawing a gun he don't hold the gun so firmly but a little bit relax.

This had happened in the real world in true very closed encounter. It may not be accepted by you but I just shared the story.

Thanks
 

Dave McC

Staff In Memoriam
If you're licensed for CCW, you' better NOT be in a club armed, or drinking. One has to conform to a "higher standard of care" when packing.

IOW, if you're legally armed,you must be the most polite, considerate, unaggressive guy on the block,and do nothing that could/would be considered provocative. Otherwise, a DA or civil lawyer will make the case to an unfriendly jury(better believe he'd knock out any potential juror with real gun experience) that you were looking for a chance to use that weapon.
 

stdalire

New member
Oh! Yeah, I know and it is also forbidden in my locality to be in such places like that, but it is only an assumption. The focal point hereon is how to defend ourselves in case we are in a situation that a bad guy is determined to use his weapon at us in a very close range.

If it comes to avoid a fight, I am one of the most patient guy in town who always get away of trouble, a very much believer in the rule of law, but I am the worst too if someone try to step on my honor and my personal rights embodied in my constitution no matter who is the agressor.

This is just for sharing my thoughts related to gun.

Thanks
 

Beretta Boy

New member
You know, this may seem silly, but after watching 'Rush Hour' my friend and I took turns taking the gun away from each other while at arms length... We came up with a couple of good ways to do this, and even when the other was holding tight, could normally get the gun away... I will not try to describe how it is done, because that would take awhile, but it is something to think about. Also, one exercise that we did that was very interesting, is one where we would cock the trigger of a gun, to where it was single action, and point it at the other. The person with the gun pointed at them WITH LITTLE PRACTICE, could learn to deflect the shooters hand to an area where it was not lethal BEFORE the other guy was able to squeeze the trigger.. reaction time was just too slow for the shooter to squeeze the trigger... it was very interesting.
Now some of you may be going bezerk over this, thinking that it was incredibly unsafe, but rest assured, that we made sure to take every safety precaution imaginable...
For The Record: HAVING SAID THAT... DO NOT TRY THIS! EVER!
IT IS UNSAFE, AND I DON'T WANT TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR SOMEONE ACCIDENTALLY GETTING SHOT WHILE DOING THIS!...but it was informative... having said all that (sorry to yell) OFF THE RECORD... I would say, if and when you do this, PLEASE be careful. =)

------------------
"...you're thinkin was that 5 shots or was it 6? Well, you've gotta ask yourself one question: Do you feel lucky??? ...Well, do ya PUNK!?!?
 

dent guy

New member
If you are within reach of the BG, and he is reaching for a gun, put your hand on your gun first, leaving it holstered, and try to disarm him with your free hand if he starts to draw. If you draw first, is that defensive or offensive? The absolutly last option you have before you die, after you've tried everything else, is to pull your gun out and shoot until he's down. You have to be able to proove that you were in your final moments to be justified here in Oregon. I have even heard cases of the employers of the BG suing the justified shooter for loss of work for big money.

[This message has been edited by dent guy (edited December 21, 1999).]
 

Danger Dave

New member
Baretta Boy's on the right track.

What I was taught is: "Control the weapon FIRST." At that close range, the weapon belongs to whoever has control of it, not necessarily the one who brought it. If you can keep him from drawing it by grabbing his wrist, or whatever, so much the better. If it's out of the holster, it gets tougher. If it is out, first you should do is make sure it isn't pointed at you (duh). Either grab it, or "slap" it away from you (down and away seems to work best), and move away from it at the same time (you get clear faster if you move it and you). Meanwhile, while his gun is pointed in another direction, you may be able to draw yours (or whatever).

There are techniques for disarming someone with a pistol at close range, but all the ones I've seen that I thought might work share the "move the gun away from you and you away from the gun" idea in one form or another. You should be aware of them - I garauntee that any former resident of our penal system has seen a few of these techniques (guards have guns, prisoners don't). Remember, it may be you who is trying to hold on to your pistol!

BTW, I know someone who has taken a gun away from a BG in a similar situation. The technique he used was sort of a "fishtail" type thing. It's hard to describe, but if anyone's interested, I'll try.

Another comment - if you can punch or use a palm smash to their face, you might want to eye gouge them instead. I recommend a "four fingered" gouge - tuck your thumb beside your hand & spread all four fingers apart. Try to strike with the middle two, and aim for the bottom of the eye socket. If you aim low and they duck, you still might get them; if they raise up, the slope of their cheekbone will sort of guide your fingers in; of course, the advantage to using all four is you get a little margin for error left-to-right.

Sorry for the long post...
 

Leo Daher

New member
Stdalire's account of a guy being forced to shoot himself while drawing should reinforce one of the basic safety rules: keep your finger off the trigger until it's time to shoot!

The bottom line on all this, IMHO, is if you're both within arm's distance, its better to get physical with the BG before you attempt to go for your own gun (and you'd better have some previous training to fall back to!). I also don't think it'd be good enough to simply slap the BG's gun arm away from you - you should grab it too, otherwise there's the chance he might quickly redirect it and shoot you anyway. And don't forget footwork!
There's good firearm retention and disarming available at the better schools - a good idea, I believe.

Last, but not least - I like Danger Dave's description of a practical eye poke. It should work much better than the usual two-fingered variety we're all familiar with.

Regards,

Leo Daher
 

stdalire

New member
Leo, you point something that we must always remember "keep your finger off the trigger until it's time to shoot!", because if we draw a weapon to someone else on a very close distance and the defender is fast enough then he help the drawer to shoot himself by its' own gun by helping him to re direct the drawing gun to the drawer.

As I said, if someone is about to draw his gun and you can reach him, don't wait him that his pistol will get out from the holster, just immediately grab/help his hand to draw his own gun to be pointed at him. It is the basic move for defense. If you are faster, then Danger Dave's solution to spear hand or do "Ponka - martial arts term" poke to the eyes with your two fingers, but you must always grab the hand holding the pistol.

Thanks
 
Top