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Was concealed carry illegal way back when?
- Thread starter Oleg Volk
- Start date
Dizzipator
New member
New York passed its concealed carry licensing scheme in the Teen's. Do a search on the "Sullivan Law".
Brief CATO mention of Sullivan Law
Brief CATO mention of Sullivan Law
Oleg,
This may not directly answer your question, but it might help fill in some information.
Do you have Halbrook's That Every Man Be Armed?
It contains good summaries of the 19th Century court cases (earliest 1822) that invovled the right to carry concealed weapons. "Concealed weapons" is an index subject.
(By the way, IMHO, this book is a must for everyone's private library).
This may not directly answer your question, but it might help fill in some information.
Do you have Halbrook's That Every Man Be Armed?
It contains good summaries of the 19th Century court cases (earliest 1822) that invovled the right to carry concealed weapons. "Concealed weapons" is an index subject.
(By the way, IMHO, this book is a must for everyone's private library).
Oleg:
The Sullivan Law, a piece of STATE LEGISLATION, was enacted in 1911. Prior to that, as I understand, anyone could purchase any sort of firearm that was availble for sale. I assume that one could also carry a pistol or revolver on or about their person, any way they wished.
The "special applications" for NYC came later. During his time as governor of New York, from what I've read, the legislature had repealed this legislation, FDR vetoed their repeal. This was at a time when the fees amounted to $0.50.
Also, at the time of passage, electoral violence in NYC was not unknown, and the Democrats who controlled the legislature wished to arm their poll watchers, while they could deny permits to poll watchers of the Republicans.
There was significant immigration from Eastern and Southern Euyrope at about that time, and established groups, who not all that many years previously had themselves been "just off the boat", looked with disdain and suspicion on these new immigrants, who weren't like them.
As has been noted by others, in other venues, the history of gun control proposals in this country is replete with examples of both racism and elitism.
Feel free to correct any historical errors I might have made.
The Sullivan Law, a piece of STATE LEGISLATION, was enacted in 1911. Prior to that, as I understand, anyone could purchase any sort of firearm that was availble for sale. I assume that one could also carry a pistol or revolver on or about their person, any way they wished.
The "special applications" for NYC came later. During his time as governor of New York, from what I've read, the legislature had repealed this legislation, FDR vetoed their repeal. This was at a time when the fees amounted to $0.50.
Also, at the time of passage, electoral violence in NYC was not unknown, and the Democrats who controlled the legislature wished to arm their poll watchers, while they could deny permits to poll watchers of the Republicans.
There was significant immigration from Eastern and Southern Euyrope at about that time, and established groups, who not all that many years previously had themselves been "just off the boat", looked with disdain and suspicion on these new immigrants, who weren't like them.
As has been noted by others, in other venues, the history of gun control proposals in this country is replete with examples of both racism and elitism.
Feel free to correct any historical errors I might have made.
David Park
New member
This is important. Although there may be very old laws on the books that prohibit concealed carry, these laws were generally selectively applied by the police of the time. In other words, they were used mainly to disarm blacks and other minorities. There is a Florida court case that actually overturned a law on this basis (it was never meant to apply to whites) but I can't remember the cite off the top of my head.As has been noted by others, in other venues, the history of gun control proposals in this country is replete with examples of both racism and elitism.
California's concealed carry permit requirement dates to 1917 within municipalities, and 1923 statewide.
Concealed carry permits were promoted pretty heavily from the period 1911 to almost WW2. See, there was a push for handgun ownership permits by many state gov'ts patterned after the NY Sullivan law of 1911, and permits for concealed carry (but relatively looser ownership standards) were promoted by pro-gun types including some inside the NRA as a milder alternative to the draconian Sullivan rules.
Oh, Michigan set up both carry and ownership permits in 1927.
Concealed carry permits were promoted pretty heavily from the period 1911 to almost WW2. See, there was a push for handgun ownership permits by many state gov'ts patterned after the NY Sullivan law of 1911, and permits for concealed carry (but relatively looser ownership standards) were promoted by pro-gun types including some inside the NRA as a milder alternative to the draconian Sullivan rules.
Oh, Michigan set up both carry and ownership permits in 1927.
Mr. Wolf, in 1902? Well, the city of Rutland, Vermont tried. Oops.
Before 1900 gun control was a Southern experiment to prevent brawls among the lower classes (the laws against brass knuckles, dirks, "illegal knives", etc.) and to control blacks. Prohibiting concealed weapons was to control the poorer whites who it was said were prone to violence and cowardice (thus concealing their weapons).
Why the specific dates?
Before 1900 gun control was a Southern experiment to prevent brawls among the lower classes (the laws against brass knuckles, dirks, "illegal knives", etc.) and to control blacks. Prohibiting concealed weapons was to control the poorer whites who it was said were prone to violence and cowardice (thus concealing their weapons).
Why the specific dates?
Texas.
In 1871 or 72 the Reconstruction Government of Texas passed a general prohibition against open or concealed carry. It was not a Jim Crow act but grew from the status of Texas and other Souther States as Federal occupied territory.
Exceptions generally included " While Traveling-never defined " For a while- while carrying large sums of money directly in route to a bank or some such as long as it wasnt' a fixed habit. The law was not to be enforced in "frontier" counties subject to incursion by hostile indians. The law was amended several times and the 1907 version was the longest standing. It outlawed the carrying of any " pistol, dirk, dagger, sword, swordcane Bowie Knife or knife made or modified for purposes of offense or defense, spear or club. this was pretty much the same as language in the original law and omitted the Indian territory language in favor of " anywhere in the state of Texas." There were exceptions for government employees making over $50 per year, persons assisting police officers.
This stayed in effect until 1979 when some vague language about exceptions for sporting purposes was added and a Concealed licensing act went into effect on 1-1-96. As of March 1, 2002 there are 202,970+ active licenses in the state. Open carry is still illegal
In 1871 or 72 the Reconstruction Government of Texas passed a general prohibition against open or concealed carry. It was not a Jim Crow act but grew from the status of Texas and other Souther States as Federal occupied territory.
Exceptions generally included " While Traveling-never defined " For a while- while carrying large sums of money directly in route to a bank or some such as long as it wasnt' a fixed habit. The law was not to be enforced in "frontier" counties subject to incursion by hostile indians. The law was amended several times and the 1907 version was the longest standing. It outlawed the carrying of any " pistol, dirk, dagger, sword, swordcane Bowie Knife or knife made or modified for purposes of offense or defense, spear or club. this was pretty much the same as language in the original law and omitted the Indian territory language in favor of " anywhere in the state of Texas." There were exceptions for government employees making over $50 per year, persons assisting police officers.
This stayed in effect until 1979 when some vague language about exceptions for sporting purposes was added and a Concealed licensing act went into effect on 1-1-96. As of March 1, 2002 there are 202,970+ active licenses in the state. Open carry is still illegal