(WA) Driver in fatal shooting won't be charged

[pax]

Found at http://www.spokane.net/news-story-body.asp?Date=092000&ID=s854663&cat=

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Driver in fatal shooting won't be charged

Seattle _ No charges will be filed against a pizza delivery driver who shot a University of Washington freshman to death, the King County prosecutor's office says.

In a four-page letter sent to parents of student James Sanderson, the prosecutor's office explained that under state law, a jury would most likely find that the driver acted in self-defense.

"The law does not require that (the driver) received some injury before using deadly force," wrote Mark Larson, chief deputy of the criminal division. "It is enough that ... he could reasonably infer that James intended to do great bodily harm or commit a felony assault."

Sanderson, 19, of Bellingham was experimenting with LSD the night of April 29, Larson said. Three hours after he took the drug, he went out to eat with his roommate and another friend.

His roommate said Sanderson was agitated, and his friends tried to calm him down. He was hugging strangers along University Way, then jumped onto the hood of the pizza delivery man's car when it stopped at a light, Larson said.

The driver warned he had a gun, but Sanderson grabbed at the car door and reached in, and was shot.

"That (the driver) would interpret these events as an imminent threat of a felony assault or an attempt to inflict great bodily harm is not unreasonable," Larson wrote. He said that while he doubted prosecution would be successful, he did not approve of the decision to shoot.

"Here, an encounter that may have ended without serious violence escalated after the gun was produced," he wrote. "The original decision to pull a gun, under all these circumstance, seems highly questionable."

Sanderson's father disputed the account and said the driver initiated the confrontation.

"To me this law does not seem right," Jerry Sanderson said. "If a person chooses to use a weapon, then he better darned well be able to tell people why he chose to use that type of defense. ... This self-defense law in Washington is a vigilante law that needs to be fixed."
[/quote]

pax


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"Is there anything wrong with a woman preferring the dignity of an armed citizen? I don't like to be coddled and I don't like to be treated like a minor child. So I waive immunity and claim my right -- I go armed." -- Longcourt Phyllis in Beyond This Horizon by Robert Heinlein

 

[Gopher .45]

This is an obvious case where the freshman can't be blamed for his activities because he was on drugs at the time. Therefore, any harm that came to him must be someone else's fault. It is a shame he died, but self defense is not the same as vigilantism. We have a right to defend ourselves against lucid people and those no longer in their right frame of mind, either by choice or by nature.

 

[Bob Locke]

I sympathize with the father of the boy who was killed, but he is WAY off base. I suspect it's his grief talking, and probably some feeling of failure on his part that he didn't do a better job raising his now-deceased son.

The prosecutor is a different story, as he has no emotional baggage to bring to the table.

"Here, an encounter that may have ended without serious violence escalated after the gun was produced," he wrote. "The original decision to pull a gun, under all these circumstance, seems highly questionable."

How can he POSSIBLY know this? Has he ever seen what people who are jacked up on LSD are capable of? I have. It's not pretty. The reactions are wide-ranging and can go from sitting in the corner drooling on oneself to very violent tendencies. It is just as likely that this kid could have tried to pull the driver out of the car and beat him to death as any other possibility.

The driver did the right thing. He defended himself in a very dangerous and volatile situation from an out-of-control person acting in an extremely aggressive manner.

The prosecutor is an ass for insinuating that the firearm led to the shooting.

 

[Jeff Thomas]

I generally share your reactions.

However, (and this is obviously based only upon what we've read on the 'net from the newspaper) I will point out that the driver could probably have avoided all of this grief.

He should have had his car door locked, and winding the window up may have been an option. And, driving away might also have been a practical response.

I know this is Monday morning quarterbacking. But consider the driver's situation ... put yourself in his shoes. Even under the circumstances, I'll wager he's gone over that event many times in his mind. He is not going to forget this trauma. And, he has been sweating out whether he will be criminally charged. Now ... he gets to wait another (help me, attorneys) 2 or 3 years to find out if he'll be sued civilly? And, make no mistake about it ... he can be sued. Happens quite often.

So, from a 'red zone', training point of view, would I have shot? Well, once the kid was into the car, it was probably too late to make another choice under the circumstances. But, I'll remember to (1) keep my car doors locked, (2) put the window(s) up (if they're not already) if a pedestrian threatens me / my car, (3) ready my sidearm if violence seems imminent, and (4) use my car to drive away from the incident if at all possible.

Young people can do some pretty stupid things. Many of us on this board can remember a few stupid things we've survived. They still have responsibility for their actions. However, with a couple different facts, this kid would have been decked by someone, and the driver would have filed a claim to get his hood fixed. IMHO, this one is a shame all around.

I hope all of us on TFL would have handled this better.

Regards from AZ

 

[USP45]

When i was about 16, a friend took a 'hit or two' of low-grade acid. After a few hours, he started to believe that he had "bugs in his shoes" and started to run around screaming, eventually he ran out onto the Interstate highway (scaled the fence.) He had to be restrained for some time to prevent injury to himself and others.

Let me tell you, this is a very scary event for someone who knows what's going on, and terrifying for someone who doesn't know whats going on.

I have no sorrow for the druggie who got shot.

I have nothing but support for delivery driver.

Yep, we all do stupid things. And sometimes Darwin wins out in the end.

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~USP

"[Even if there would be] few tears shed if and when the Second Amendment is held to guarantee nothing more than the state National Guard, this would simply show that the Founders were right when they feared that some future generation might wish to abandon liberties that they considered essential, and so sought to protect those liberties in a Bill of Rights. We may tolerate the abridgement of property rights and the elimination of a right to bear arms; but we should not pretend that these are not reductions of rights." -- Justice Scalia 1998

 

[beemerb]

Father is probably preping the media for a BIG lawsuit and lots of money.After all the self defense law is wrong and no person should have the right to defend themselfs against idiots like his son.

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Bob--- Age and deceit will overcome youth and speed.
I'm old and deceitful.

 

[Dave P]

"He should have had his car door locked, and winding the window up may have been an option. "

Let's be careful here, we are starting to blame the victim for the actions of the criminal.

This is a sad situation for everyone, I am sure.

 

[Jeff Thomas]

Well, I knew my comments could be taken in that way, but please read it again.

I'm not blaming the driver. I am saying he could have taken steps to avoid this problem, and that's what I like about TFL ... we can learn from situations like this.

Regards from AZ

 

[ernest2]

DUH ! The pizza delevery guy had no idea about what was about to happen. He had no
idea that the kid was wacked on lsd.

Suddenly someone jumps on the hood of your car and then yanks your door open.

I'm glad that It didn't happen to me because
I would have emptied my magizine into him
in mortal fear of my life.

The pizza delivery man was responding to what
could have been and sure looked like and armed assault,robbery and car jacking.

The pizza guy had no way of knowning that this was not indeed the case until 10 minutes after the event was completed.

When you are assaulted, 3 seconds response time is the difference between your surviving
the assault or your death by criminal violence.

After the fact and not in possession of all the facts arm chair quarterbacks.

Sages of the Ages.

You were not there and you do not know how it felt to be assaulted by a mad man intentions unknown.

I imagine that I would have been scared sh~tless and blasted away in mortal fear for my life.
Any other response would have to leave me open to being shot (too slow on the draw to survive) by my criminal assailant.

Sure, its easy to say he should had done a 20/20 news interview on his assailant before
defending his life, but that is just a formula for another crime victim.

The idea of having a gun to protect your life is to keep from getting dead.
If you dont use your gun to defend yourself
when attacked, you might as well not bother to own a gun.

There have been other cases where people have died because they have been attacked and
their legally owned firearms were locked up with trigger locks ,allowing the criminals to add another innocent dead victim to their
criminal records.

One must accept the responsibility of
determining if an armed comflict can possibly be avoided without sacrificing ones
life and continued survival because of our deep concern over our criminal attackers rights, which far outwiegh (at least in the minds of liberals) victim's rights.

The kid was way out of line attacking the pizza guy. I too, would probably responded
with deadly fire in a similar situation.

Remember, a judgement needs to be made in 3 seconds ,you are surpried and in almost paralizing fear for your life.
Prehaps the piza guy could have driven through his attacker , but not if their was a car right
in front of his, say stopped in line at a light.

We were not there and we dont know if any other options were availble to the piza guy
but somehow, I dont think that driving away was a doable option and the pizza guy probably thought that her was cornored and had no other survivable option available.

Just so no one mis-understands me, I go through life as a defensive driver would,
trying to anticipate and avoid problems and
hoping never to need to ever use my gun.
But we are considering a situation here where
every thing looked safe & normal and suddenly ,out of the blue, you are being
attacked. Best response is to run or drive
away. This option being denied as car door was pulled open, are you going to just sit
there and let yourself be shot.

This kid , I dont think that her was talking, to the piza guy. Some criminals
use this tecnique to scare their victims
and it is very effective. People think this guy is just going to kill me without saying a word.

I think that this pizza guy had a really tough call to make which he wishes he was never put in that spot and that the lsd freak was responsible for his own death as
a result of his own actions.

You say "He didn't know what he was doing
because he was freaked out on lsd.
I agree, he didnt know but HE SHOULD HAVE THOUGHT OF THAT BEFORE HE TOOK THE LSD.

Why do you think LSD is illegal, to begin with. To stop unfornuate incidents like this from occuring.



[This message has been edited by ernest2 (edited September 26, 2000).]

 

[USP45usp]

We all have to remember a couple of things:

1) We weren't there
2) This is media reporting, so many "facts" may have been twisted

There have been too many incidences of night time workers being targeted by stupid people (i.e. this guy on drugs), robbers, serial killers, etc.. Being a night worker, my body is constently on condition red. So being in this condition, I am already releasing adrenilyn(sp(never said I was a good speller) into my bloodstream when my "senses" alert. I don't know what I would have done, but in the end, I would try to ensure that I was the one still alive without bodily harm.

USP45usp

 

[Jeff Thomas]

Oh, well, now that you put it that way, I see what you mean ... it's waaay too much trouble to stay in the habit of locking my car doors ...

We'll just have to agree to a small disagreement on this one.

Regards from AZ

 

[ruger45]

NO the pizza guy should have kept going
and ran over the druggie so the guy could live and sue the pizza guy for daring to
drive in a legal traffic lane at a legal speed while the student was innocently tripping on an illegal drug.
In memphis not long ago we had a string of
car jackings.
IN the beginning it was only the former car owners that had been shot usually in the leg.
What was most interesting about the cases is the perps usually pretended to be jaywalking
and got too close to cars intentionally when they pulled forward sometimes getting hit or pretending to.
At one point when a drive got out to check on the 'injured' person he simply shot the driver in the leg pushed him to the ground and took off.
At the time I was mostly only carrying on the weekends, that changed real quick.
One of the carjackers was later shot dead in the attempt and witnesses that the perp was armed apparently helped the driver with a permit get through court at a normal speed.
This also reminds me of another story.
When my father was about 28 he went to get a friend from a bar who had gotten drunk ( his wife knew and called my father)
when escorting him out at one point the guy swung around and hit him in the head with his bottle.My father fell to the ground semi-concious surprised as the guy had not been hard to deal with yet.
He proceeded to kick my father repeadetly in the head.
To this day he is nearly deaf in his left ear.The guy later claimed not too remember a thing.
But I think he knew what he was doing when he picked up the first beer or is it the Beers fault.
If he had kicked him in the nose he could have killed him ,my father has a blood disorder that makes it very difficult for his blood to clot.
Even without a gun Im glad I wasnt their Ive plenty of martial traing to know how to take down a drunk person so they cant get up without killing them.
www.ccops.org www.gunowners.org


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"those who sacrifice
liberty for security deserve neither"

 

[pax]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>We all have to remember a couple of things:
1) We weren't there
2) This is media reporting, so many "facts" may have been twisted[/quote]

You're right -- the facts probably were twisted at least a little. If so, which direction do you think the twist would turn? In favor of the shooter's choice? Or against it?

Lessons learned: <OL TYPE=1><LI>Keep your doors locked. <LI>Shoot straight.</OL>

pax

"Man errs so long as he strives." -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe